The Ship Model Forum

Weren't Rurik and Averoff and an Italian armored cruiser (Pisa Class) all built to the same basic design?

Jack

Agreed. Although not turbine powered as intended Rurik was more Battle cruiser than cruiser and was fitted with a number of novel features like cross flooding ducts in the double bottom and a magazine spraying and flooding arrangement. Also the 4x 10inch /50 s and the 8 x8inch /50 were an interesting combination. Alas the ship was never really put to the test but it remains one of those naval might have beens. In a hypothetical one to one on Blucher, it would have been to close to call but in the hands of the RN Rurik would have sent Blucher to the bottom in short order.
Dave Wooley

I have no idea who the designer of the Averoff or the Pisa class was But Rurik was designed by Owen Thurston and built at Barrow -in- Furness . One of the two 1:48th scale builders models still exists and can be found at Barrow.
Dave Wooley

This type of second-class battleship was not employed on the distant protection, scouting or trade route duties for which they were intended. Therefore, I would have to say the entire lot of armored cruisers/battle cruisers were a failure because tactically they became either a wing of the battle fleet or attached as battle scouts, where they lacked the range.

We also must remember these bear no connection to the WW.II heavy cruiser, which wound up being a proxy for battleships because the latter were too expensive and in too short a supply to be risked with any frequency. The rather large pool of CAs and CLs fit this role nicely.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

The Kaiser's ships were in fact originally designed to fight primarily at 6000 - 8000 yards, distance at which torpedoes and 5.9 inch guns are considered to be able to exert a decisive effect. The elevation of the guns on many German capital ships can scarcely allow them to reach out to 15,000 yards. Actual performance of German long range fire often seem to be inferior even to those of the Russians, whose dreadnoughts and even pre-dreadnoughts often held their own against the Goeben. German fire control was designed with consideration towards being able to find the range quickly while the range is changing rapidly, as they would be when the German fleet close in quickly on the opposing line while striving to attain the ideal 6-8000 meter range. Hence German ability to score sooner than the British at moderate ranges, and unusual German tactics such as keeping destroyers on the disengaged side the battleline, to burst through gaps between battleships to launch torpedoes at the decisive moment.

German fire control during WWI was not without its strengths. But on the whole I think it's been overestimated.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Tumbling shells is a feature of the 12"/50 cal guns. I believe Invincible had the earlier 12"/45, which when adjusted for size was comparable in accuracy to 13.5 or 15" guns.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

You have to distinguish the period about which you're talking when discussing naval gunfire. Before 1850, gunfire was at most a few hundred yards. by 1890, Camperdown's 13.5 inch guns would penetrate 27 inches of iron at 1,000 yards. By 1905, Tsushima was fought at 4,000 to 8,000 yards.

At the Falklands, the British were shocked to be straddled by von Spee at 15,000 yards with his 8.2 inch guns, which they credited with an absolute maximum of 16,000 yard range. As for sturdiness, Gneisnenau took 50 12-inch hits before sinking. One British ship fired 109 rounds per gun, even though the allowance was 80. Perhaps their bad shooting is due to the very long range and the absence of any operating range computer gear.

WW.I was a period of rapid development. in 1914 the German Fleet thought the maximum possible range for hits was 15Km. After Dogger Bank, Germans (like the British) worked to improve ranges through the spotting controls and computers. By Jutland, the shortest maximum range for German capital ships was at least 16.2Km[1] with a few ships able to shoot a little further[2]. A key development was a three phase AC motor which would keep the rangekeeping information in absolute synchrony between the plot and the turrets. These motors were removed before the ships sailed to Scapa Flow.

[1] Friedman, Naval Firepower, Gunnery report of SMS von der Tann, p. 161

[2] Gunnery report of ibid, p. 160

I am laboring without my primary source on Jutland, which is at the office.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Germans belonged to the short range school at the eve of WWI. It is not that they did not believe hits can be scored at longer ranges. It's that they thought decisive effect would not likely be achieved until ranges fell under 8000 yards. The British and French belonged to the medium range school. Austro-Hungarians and the Russians were the only real champions of long range gunnery on the even of WWI. Both Russians and Austro-Hungarians already thought in terms of engagements beyond 20,000 yards even before the start of WWI. As it turned out, the actual ranges seen in WWI considerably exceeded both German and British expectations, and were in the ranges expected by the Russians and Austro-hungarians

Perhaps due to expectation of engagement at longer range than other powers, Czarist Russian long range gunnery was in fact outstanding, superior to the Japanese in 1904 and superior to the Germans in 1914-1918, and much underrated both during Russo-Japanese war and during WWI in general narrations that emphasizes the general corruption and incompetence of the Russian state.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Conditions prevailing in the North Sea for much of the year imply engagements there will be short range and of relatively short duration at least nine months a year.

The Kaisermarine evidently designed a fleet to fit this battlefield, which belies it's name High Seas Fleet.

If the Kaiser's fleet did get past the Dover blockade or Scapa Flow, it would find itself already short of fuel and in conditions for which it's ships were unsuited.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

However, on the eve of WWI the Germans were seriously experimenting with installing diesel engines on the center shaft of some of their 3 shaft dreadnought in order to give themselves the ability to deploy one dreadnought battle squadron to an oversea station, probably in the Mediterrainean.

Whether this was another one of Kaiser Wilhelm's birdbrained schemes, or whether this was take in response to a thoughtful prognosis of where European politics was headed before being rudely interrupted by WWI, I don't know. But actions of Russia, France and Germany do suggest that there is widespread expectation of a struggle for naval influence in the Med before 1920 before the pre-war world suddenly began to immolate itself with the guns of August.

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Assessing the impact of new area rug under modeling table.

Assuming we exclude the all-big-gun armored cruisers...doesn't Ibuki beat the snot out of any opponent?

The German reply was initiated at 1.30pm and the range was below 12000yards Sturdee wanted to maintain his range at 16000yards. During the first thirty minutes of the engagement both Inflexible and Invincible had expended no less than 210 rounds on 12inch ammunition scoring three hits on Gneisenau and one on Scharnhorst. A good rate of fire but poor marksmanship.
Dave Wooley

I don't believe their equipment offered any correction for trunnion tilt at that time. How many hits did the Germans score during that same initial period?

The big problem facing Sturdee in the first 30mintes that made the shooting so problematic was dence clouds of smoke from the German ships constantly obscuing the targets.
Dave Wooley

There doesn't seem to be any real consensus to answer your question with any certainty. HW Wilson makes the point that Gneisenau discharged 1000 rounds during the entire engagement, Which is some what contradictory as much of the magazine was depleted at Coronel but what is known there were a number of shells fired from both German armoured cruisers that failed to explode on impact. What is interesting is that the 8.2inch and the 5.9inch were hitting the British battle cruisers, particularly Invincible with a consistency that seemed to be lacking from both British ships.
Dave Wooley

The fact that the Germans began zig-zagging was a surprise to the British, who expected the ships of both sides to maintain steady formation fire in order to maximize hits. Zig-zagging threw away the chance for scoring at long range. Perhaps von Spee was counting on the British having a limited magazine capacity.

Blucher may have not been the best armored cruiser. She is burdened by short range, small guns and a reciprocating engine. A better Armored Cruiser might be the last of the US "Big Ten", like ACR-13, USS Missoula, (ex USS Montana). Armor and machinery were roughly comparable, but she has 4 x 10-inch/45, making her a semi-dreadnought, in addition to her 16x6 inch.

After the Washington Treaty there was serious consideration given to refitting them with engines similar to the ones projected for Ranger and lengthening them fore and aft, which would have given them lines similar to Omaha. They would have been the most powerful cruisers in the 1940s and 1950s. However, it was considered to be a disingenuous act after rallying Congress to build so many new heavy cruisers, and they were scrapped instead, or converted into auxiliaries.

Of course Russia, Japan, Austria and several other countries had armored cruisers which I have not condidered in detail which were probably superior in every detail.

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If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Considering how long Blucher survived under the shelling of Royal Navy Battle Cruisers equipped with 12in and 13.5in Battleship size guns, you'de have to say she was the best built conventional Armoured Cruiser. Nothing wrong with her guns either. I vote for her. But Now, I am talking conventional recognized Armoured Cruisers. Not the ships given 12in BB guns. I call them Battle Cruisers.
Blucher is and has always been my candidate for conversion to a commerce raider early on. She had no purpose in a Battle Fleet or BC force, so unship her wing turrets, go to sea as a commerce raider with fore and aft turrets. Your only goal is to sink Merchant ships, not fight unless you have to and you are more or less proof against alot of RN LCs. Your extra space in the wings go for coal and supplies. She was sunk at Dogger Bank to no gain, out at sea in a converted role, she would do some real damage. And before anyone says she couldn't do it, simply read up on what a few slow merchant ships with old guns did. Make use of your assets, send her out to raid. The assumption is she will most likely not come back. But, she might survive and she will for sure kill alot of British shipping.

Bob B.

In addition to Blucher taking so much punishment at Dogger Bank,

Think about how long Von Spee's ships survived at the Falklands. The Germans knew how to build a tough armored cruiser.

I don't have any of my sources handy here at work, but was Blucher's range similar to the Scharnhorst class ships?

IMO, Blucher would have really shined if she had been Von Spee's flagship at the Falklands. The battle might have turned out very differently if Blucher and S&G were facing Sturdee's battlecruisers.

The battlecruisers still more powerful, but... how effectively could they have engaged 3 targets? It seems shifting fire back and forth to cover the third ship would make accurate shooting more difficult, and you wouldn't want to leave any of the German armored cruisers unfired upon. The battlecruiser's have one strake of 6" armor at the waterline, all 3 of the German ships are completely armored amidships to the upper deck. Bluchers belt was nearly 7" thick admidships. It all comes down to timing, can the BC's turn the armored cruisers into burning wrecks before an 8.2" shell finds a weak spot...

Also, Rurik II has been brought up as well. Another fine ship, but I still give Blucher the edge because she is much faster. I have never found Rurik's all out top speed, but Blucher did nearly 26 knots on trial. I have read Rurik could do 21 knots "easy steaming" but never found a reference to her "forced draft" speed.

I believe the 12-inch shells had a well-known chill defect which caused them to break up on impact. See Campbell.

_________________
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)

Indeed, Blucher was a waste as an element of the German High Seas Fleet. Being not fit for the Battle Line, her place was on foreign station or refitted as a sort of WWI pocket BB raider. Without the armour and turrets on her wings, she had massive space for coal and stores. Although fine as she was, she was built to an outdated design with the BCs taking over her role. Foreign service and or raiding would have made the most of the mistake of building her at a time that the Royal Navy was building BCs.
The Falklands Battle proved a couple of things. In their role as Armoured Cruiser killers, Fishers BCs were superb. As ship builders and gunnery artists, the German front line sailors were superb. I would expect the same from Blucher and her crew in an similar open seas operations.

Bob B.