The Ship Model Forum

Yes those are interesting designs also. I do think if germany could have built a heavy cruiser with 8-11 inch guns in 4 turrets though, it would have been a another ship that would have tied up the British Naval assets at the time. This could have been a ship that could have been along with Bismarck and Prinze Eugan, or inplace of PE. Anyways I didn't mean to get side tracked, I have been playing Navy Field just to look at the z plan designs on the game, I acctually dont realy play it, I start the battle and let the ship sail strait, and if they sink it, I still get points to earn the next ship. Its realy a poor game, but the dock designs are interesting. Now that I have my Drafting desk set up, I have been doing allot of ship design, configuring and alteration, so Im sure i'll come up with some interesting stuff. Right now I'm working with the SpahKruezer designs.

You could play with Study 2 - 4T2x280 - "pocket Derfflinger"
or study 6 - 2T3x280 - 1T2x280


Jef :wave_1:

No worries, and Ty for replying. I see why you are doing the studies now, for the game. It looks iteresting however my plate is way over filled and I don't have enough time as it is or I would consider playing it. With your permision I would like to draw a variation of the last BC design with the 8-11 inch gun set up. I'm not to keen on the Graph Spee bridge on her but other than that I like the balance of the design. She could have been a considerable comerce raider. Smooth sailing as always, Haratio.

Sory to be late Horatio.
Since 2008, I m on the forum Navalism.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php

We built alternate fleet for our countries with Springsharp.
so, I visite irregulary ModelWarship I like always to see models.
Since 2007, I have scratched
DKM P Panzerschiff
Peruvian Cruiser Inca Roca (Navalism)
SMS Von der tann
SMS Thurringen
HMS Indefatigable
HMS Lion
HMS Repulse (Trumpeter)

I didnt post photos because, these are "Classic Warships"
But, scratch a battleship of the Austerlitz class could be nice...

http://www.navalism.org/index.php/board,362.0.html

Jef :thumbs_up_1:

Very nice work, and esspecialy in such a small scale, have you done any more projects since 2007?

Thanks Dave

:lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1:



Jef :thumbs_up_1:

Jef's superb scratch work is also about to go into the next page , thought I'd bring it back to the top of the board.
Dave Wooley

BRAVO.....Le artist!!! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1: :lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1:

Very nice ships,beautiful work.
Bravo!
A.

Imagine...



Mai 1941 with Bismarck & Prinz Eugen...



[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2729/1021861rl1.jpg[/img][/url]



[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3284/1021862ex1.jpg[/img][/url]



[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4724/1021863nl0.jpg[/img][/url]



[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/567/1021864px9.jpg[/img][/url]




Jef :wave_1:

Jef,

[quote]The 8x5"9 turrets weighs 200tons (remove)
The armour of the 11" turrets is not similar to Nassau but lighter[/quote]

Ah, ok - I didn't take that into account.

[quote]SpringSharp give for Deutschland class:
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 623 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 2 768 tons, 18.9 %
- Belts: 399 tons, 2.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 597 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 528 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1 172 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 71 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2 017 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 796 tons, 39.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 372 tons, 23.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %[/quote]

Hm. The armament weight is definitely too low - one triple turret weighs around 600 tons alone.

[quote]And for Study2:
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 725 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 3 137 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 593 tons, 4.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 554 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 749 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1 171 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 70 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1 722 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 959 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 854 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.1 %

As you can see, that is an other mixture of the weights

:woo_hoo:
It is possible to made a Graf Spee with 3T3x11"...
:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: [/quote]

Indeed, but I'm still sceptical - take the weight of the main guns alone (without any turret); that's around 48 tons x 8 = 384 tons. The C/31 weighs, if I remember correctly, about 25 tons x 6 = 150 tons, taken together we arrive at 534 tons. This leaves only 191 tons for the four gunhouses for the 28cm guns, and that sounds awfully little to me

[quote]Did you test SpringSharp?[/quote]

I'm using it every now and then to test some of my own designs since a couple of years; I must admit, though, that every now and then I find its results hard to believe (I presume one reason is because it is originally geared to post-WW2 construction).

Definitely a nice tool, but I prefer paper and pencil (and a calculator, of course... :big_grin:).

Jorit

JWintjes wrote:
"Just a minor footnote on the design - I doubt such a layout would have been feasible with 28cm guns. One of the guns weighs close to 50 tons alone (that's already 400 tons for the weight allocated for armament for the guns alone); a Deutschland-type triple turret weighs in at around 590 tons. A Nassau-type 28cm twin turret weighs around 400 tons, and a Deutschland (predread)-type twin turret would not be significantly below that. So four of these would probably be well in excess of 1000 tons. It might work with 24cm guns in lightly armoured gunhouses. "


The 8x5"9 turrets weighs 200tons (remove)
The armour of the 11" turrets is not similar to Nassau but lighter

SpringSharp give for Deutschland class:
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 623 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 2 768 tons, 18.9 %
- Belts: 399 tons, 2.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 597 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 528 tons, 3.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1 172 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 71 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2 017 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 796 tons, 39.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 372 tons, 23.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %

And for Study2:
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 725 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 3 137 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 593 tons, 4.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 554 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 749 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1 171 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 70 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1 722 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 959 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 854 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.1 %


As you can see, that is an other mixture of the weights



:woo_hoo:
It is possible to made a Graf Spee with 3T3x11"...
:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:


Did you test SpringSharp?


Jef :wave_1:

Haha, good point. :big_grin:

Jorit

Psh, Jorit, if it works in NavyField, it'll work here =P
:lol_1:

[img]http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6245/moltkesq2.gif[/img]

Looking very good indeed; I particularly love the way your decks turn out - they really look great! :thumbs_up_1:

Just a minor footnote on the design - I doubt such a layout would have been feasible with 28cm guns. One of the guns weighs close to 50 tons alone (that's already 400 tons for the weight allocated for armament for the guns alone); a Deutschland-type triple turret weighs in at around 590 tons. A Nassau-type 28cm twin turret weighs around 400 tons, and a Deutschland (predread)-type twin turret would not be significantly below that. So four of these would probably be well in excess of 1000 tons. It might work with 24cm guns in lightly armoured gunhouses.

Jorit

Looking better than ever, how you will get the R/C in to them is beyond me. :lol_3: :lol_3: :wave_1: :wave_1: :lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1: :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Study 2 is finish
:lol_spit_1:


Here is the SpringSharp

Study 2, Germany Panzerschiff-raider laid down 1931

Displacement:
11 563 t light; 12 245 t standard; 14 417 t normal; 16 154 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
590.50 ft / 582.02 ft x 72.18 ft (Bulges 72.74 ft) x 23.46 ft (normal load)
179.99 m / 177.40 m x 22.00 m (Bulges 22.17 m) x 7.15 m
Armament:
8 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (4x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5 797 lbs / 2 629 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.35" / 85 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 150.92 ft / 46.00 m 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
24.28 ft / 7.40 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 406.82 ft / 124.00 m 23.36 ft / 7.12 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.69" / 170 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
- Armour deck: 2.24" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 5.51" / 140 mm
Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 57 600 shp / 42 969 Kw = 27.22 kts
Range 14 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 909 tons
Complement:
657 - 855
Cost:
£5.474 million / $21.897 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 725 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 3 137 tons, 21.8 %
- Belts: 593 tons, 4.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 554 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 749 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1 171 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 70 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1 722 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 959 tons, 41.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 854 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.1 %
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19 381 lbs / 8 791 Kg = 28.9 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.13 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.74 ft / 1.14 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.90 ft / 8.20 m
- Forecastle (19 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.46 ft / 6.54 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Stern: 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.45 ft / 5.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.3 %
Waterplane Area: 28 195 Square feet or 2 619 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 690 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

The photos

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4007/1021837ym1.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3858/1021841rh4.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/594/1021851rc1.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/124/1021852mm3.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2470/1021858ib0.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4345/1021844rr7.jpg[/img][/url]



:lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1: :lol_spit_1:

Jef :wave_1:

Great job, love the camo :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

I really like the Pocket D. ^^ It reminds me of the fake Moltke in Navyfield =P

They all look very nice Jef!!