The Ship Model Forum

a very worthy project- :thumbs_up_1:

-unusual ship seen as a model,,,


any more recent progress...?

interested !!

Jim Baumann :wave_1:

:woo_hoo:

There will be some progress in the nextz month - due to an accident during the removal some informations got lost (by rain!)
Here a new information I found on

Best wishes
Christian

Anything happening here ?

wefalck

Hy forumianers,
here the very first steps - the yawl is very tiny-minuscule... you can get a very good idea by the pins & pinheads... there seems not to be any facet large enough to hold on the traction of the planking.
I'll use special wool power/super glue :whistle: I hope it'll do ist. :whistle:

Christian

Hello, wefalck!

From time to time, you may find interesting details on the sideways of literature... Here the ropes and bails for the gunport's lids. There some information noone else attached importance to and in his own book wrote it off.

[i]First weigh it - than dare it.
Helmuth von Motke the Elder[/i]

But now to the boats kit I bought:

It's a cutter and a yawl manufactured by a company near Bielefeld - they use to deliever PoF-Kits. The mould is from gypsum, the the Fframes will be made from wood by watering and using a 30W soldering iron.

Till the next progress,

Yours,
Christian

The Italian book probably is

BARGONI, F., GAY, F., GAY, V.M. (2001): Navi a vela e navi miste Italiane (1861-1887) - Fregate, corvette, brigantini, golette, e avvisi.- 541 p., Roma (Ufficio Storico della Marine Militare).

but it is not helpful for your project. Honestly, why are you searching up and down and sideways, while people in the German forum have pointed you to the source .... :woo_hoo: Just don't try cobble together things from secondary sources.

A bit frustrated

wefalck

[quote="peppe"]some images of kronprinz
ciao peppe[/quote]
Hallo Peppe!

Thanks a lot... the drawing is highly interesting... there is a very good book with drawings of ironclads - in italian - perhaps you may know it???
It might be helpful for my project.

Yours
Christian

Neptune,

I can understand your argumentation - but with underwaterpart AND warrigging she will be to high for the showcase... and the WLmodel showes here as she had hab been seen outside of the dock...

Perchance I'll build a hull modell without rigging later due to the high of the showcase, a comparemodel in 1/350 for the ICM lastik kit of[i] Kronprinz[/i] of 1915 or a RC model in a bit lager scale 1/75... but after...
AFTER the completition of the first[i] Kronprinz [/i].

:cool_1: The trapp of defexion is allways ready... :heh:

My fingers have been too wet today by sweat to do anithing without PCwork - it dropped in the books and paper get wet by touching it... so I've decided to look for some boat kits and found those you can see upsidedown ;)

The pinace will be build slowly step by step... and the rest will be built pice by pice...

Yours
Chris

[quote]Now neptune,
there is one very easy reason for this: I am horroified by the complex screw:[/quote]

I don't see anything really horrifying there... That's exactly why it's a pitty that it's a waterline model. These "strange" (not so uncommon for those days though) arrangements always give something extra to a ship model.
It's like building an airplane without a canopy and top, because you always see the underside of it when it's in the air...
I agree it's not always easy to find dry dock pictures and if you go for a propellor also the sea in-and outlets should be added, not always easy.
It's a choice and I respect that very much though. It'll be a great model for sure, even without a propellor and lower hull. I'm very interested by the shape of any hull or ship, so I'll keep following this for sure. Hope to see some progress soon :thumbs_up_1:

[quote="wefalck"]The large boats were not cklinker-built only 'Kutter', 'Gig' and 'Jolle' (according to BRIX, 1878).

wefalck[/quote]

That's interesting because Dirk Nottelmann conducted on his planset of [i]Prinz Adalbert[/i]:

"All boats clinkered" :Huh

Brix is very close to 1867, so I'll follow you wefalck! And according to this I'll break my fingers and optic nerve later with the smaller boats ;)

Thanks a lot,

Christian

[quote="Neptune"]A pitty that it will be a WL ship, but still looking forward to any progress on it :woo_hoo: :thumbs_up_1:[/quote]
Now neptune,
there is one very easy reason for this: I am horroified by the complex screw:

The large boats were not cklinker-built only 'Kutter', 'Gig' and 'Jolle' (according to BRIX, 1878).

wefalck

Thanks a lot, now I can give a qualified reply to the barrel as a picture. This is a longitudinal cut through a L/22 barrel that fits perfectly to the carriage above :thumbs_up_1:

And because every Clue needs a beginning - I began with the largest boat on the armoured frigate: "Pinnace".

My idea is to build here a clkinker planked boat in thick paper

Inside of a clinkered fishing boat:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Klinkerbauweise_innen.jpg
Outside of the same:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Klinkerbauweise_au%C3%9Fen.jpg

The main Problem is called [color=#FF4000]"Landung[/color]" in German the fine line to glue each plank onto the other.
And the MUST fit perfectly! Any error is shown by a thread of light between the planks :lol_3: :mad_1: :mad_2:

So there is a plenty to do - b.t.w.: books about boatbuilding from Chapelle and Bermingham are most helpful to me.

Thank you for following my thread!

Yours Chris

Here two images of the broadside carriage model C/68 for the 21 cm RK/l19 in found in a French 'naval intelligence' book of 1883 in my library:

[img]http://www.wefalck.eu/mm/maritime/Marine-Forum/21cm-Lafette-C68-1-72.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.wefalck.eu/mm/maritime/Marine-Forum/21cm-Lafette-C68-2-72.jpg[/img]

Source: MINISTÉRE DE LA MARINE ET DES COLONIES [Ed.] (1883): Mémorial de l’artillerie de marine.- 1re (Pl. 1-13) livraison, Paris (Imprimerie Lemercier et Cie.).


wefalck

some images of kronprinz
ciao peppe

[quote]But I'm affraild of the diffrend Marks during the Years - the altered in the RN very fast i.e._ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_7_inch_gun, Pictures: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... uselang=de[/quote]

Which is why I said, that one needs to pin down a period in which the ship is supposed to be set.

I had a quick look over some of the material (I am preparing currently for a 10-day mission to Central Asia, so not much time). The early career of SMS KRONPRINZ is part of a rather turbulent and unsettled period as far as artillery development is concerned. The plans for her armament were modernised, while she still being built and fitted out. In fact, her first commissioning was delayed until May 1869 because of that. She was originally foreseen to receive what were then called 72 pounder breech-loading guns, but due the beginning arms race between guns and armour, Krupp was asked to improve the designs onf the guns. About the same time the denomination of guns changed from using the nominal weight of the projectile to caliber and caliber-length, plus some note on the way of construction. In our case it became the 'kurze 21 cm Ring-Kanone' (kz. 21 cm R.K. or 21 cm R.K./L19) and lg. 21 cm R.K. or 21 cm R.K./L21 for the chasing guns.

I am still looking for drawings, but one may have to puzzle them together from different sources.

BTW, there is a slight mistake in your avatar (which was uploaded by me, I think) and the reference to SMS KRONPRINZ. She only may have flown the Prussian Naval Ensign during her transfer from her yard in England to Prussia (under the command of Commander Henk - who was the author of 'Zur See'), but then she was unarmed. Alternatively, she might have flown the Prussian Merchant Flag (my avatar), if not commissioned as a man-of-war for the transfer. When in service, she would have flown the ensign of the Nordeutsche Bund (1867-1871, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norddeutscher_Bund), which after 1871 became the ensign of the Imperial German Navy (Reichkriegsflagge).

wefalck

[quote="wefalck"]Every 'iron-clad' is 'armoured', but not every 'armoured' ship is iron-clad. Indeed, the first armour plate was iron wrought under huge steam hammers. Krupp developed a process for casting alloyed steel that then was rolled into armour plate.

The properties of the composite armour evolved in history as the projectiles fired at it evolved. The first armour was mainly designed to fragment on impact the rather brittle cast-iron cannon balls and shells of the time and thus render them less dangerous to the structure of the ship. When ogival shot and shells fired from rifled guns appeared, the energy of the impact had to be dissipated within the armour plate, which means it had to be hard and tough (i.e. resistant against brittle deformation) at the same time. The wooden backing takes up some of the energy transmitted through the armour plate by the impact without impacting the structure of the ship.

I'll check my sources on the 21 cm RK/L22 (Vorderpivotllafette für Pfortenwechsel ?) and 21 cm RK/L19 (Vorderpivot-Breitseitlafette), but it may take a few days.

wefalck[/quote]

That would be wonderful!!!
But I'm affraild of the diffrend Marks during the Years - the altered in the RN very fast i.e._ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_7_inch_gun
Pictures: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/RML_7_inch_7_ton_gun_diagrams.jpg?uselang=de

Thanks a lot!

Every 'iron-clad' is 'armoured', but not every 'armoured' ship is iron-clad. Indeed, the first armour plate was iron wrought under huge steam hammers. Krupp developed a process for casting alloyed steel that then was rolled into armour plate.

The properties of the composite armour evolved in history as the projectiles fired at it evolved. The first armour was mainly designed to fragment on impact the rather brittle cast-iron cannon balls and shells of the time and thus render them less dangerous to the structure of the ship. When ogival shot and shells fired from rifled guns appeared, the energy of the impact had to be dissipated within the armour plate, which means it had to be hard and tough (i.e. resistant against brittle deformation) at the same time. The wooden backing takes up some of the energy transmitted through the armour plate by the impact without impacting the structure of the ship.

I'll check my sources on the 21 cm RK/L22 (Vorderpivotllafette für Pfortenwechsel ?) and 21 cm RK/L19 (Vorderpivot-Breitseitlafette), but it may take a few days.

wefalck

[quote="wefalck"]Gorg, you need to be more specific about what guns and carriages you are looking for. The material is too abundand otherwise and I have no time to research which would be applicable for SMS KRONPRINZ.[/quote]

Yes weflack - that may be right. It is the rifeled Krupp (Mantel)Ringkanone 21cm L22 (L means 21cm multiplicated twentytwotimes is the length of the barre.) for the upperdeck twice (the hunting- and retiringgun) and fourteen times 21cm diameter L19 barrellength in the centralbattery. The Meyers Conversationslexicon III.Edition told me that [i]Friedrich Carl[/i] and [i]Kronprinz[/i] got the same armarment. Here the translation of the test below the engraving: [i]The text means:
Short 21cm ring naval gun (4meters barrel length) on a boardside gubncarriage the german armoured frigates "Kronprinz" and "Friedrich Cark" Typ of the boardside-and upperdeck-frame guncariage with front-pintle.[/i]
Perchance this is helpful to you.
[b]
The austrian [i]Erzherzog Ferdinand Max, Habsburg[/i] and [i]Don Juan d'Austria[/i] had aftrer there fiscalic-forced "rebuilt" the 21 Krupp on board... but what Type, on what kind of guncarriage???[/b]

[quote="wefalck"]BTW the terms are either 'armoured' [b][u]or[/u][/b] 'ironclad'. The latter is more used for the, say, pre-1890s ships that had iron or soft steel armour, as opposed to later ships that had hardened steel armour.

wefalck[/quote]


Thanks, that is quite new to me :shipcaptain: I thought the two terms/concepts would be used synonym, as I read it very often in books and the www. So I got used to this error. Thank you very much - wrought-iron it is called - so it is really a soft iron. So it sh-/could be called [i]wrought-iron-claded[/i]...

I also plan to show on the baseplate the heavyness/thicknesss of the armouing as it was originally 124mm wrought iron on 254mm teak package vertically disposed (source: Kronenfels)

Thank you very much,

Gorg

Gorg, you need to be more specific about what guns and carriages you are looking for. The material is too abundand otherwise and I have no time to research which would be applicable for SMS KRONPRINZ.

BTW the terms are either 'armoured' or 'ironclad'. The latter is more used for the, say, pre-1890s ships that had iron or soft steel armour, as opposed to later ships that had hardened steel armour.

wefalck