The Ship Model Forum

Re: Did the Dean's Marine plan include a body plan for the hull???

No, the Dean's Marine plan lacks the body plan for the hull. The outline of the main deck is inaccurate for the actual ship, but again Dean's product is the assembly instruction sheet for their kit.

For the outline of the main deck, I scaled my model from the sketch in Norman Friedman's book about RN destroyers and frigates since WW2. I did not model the underwater hull. The back cover of [i]To Sail No More Part 3[/i] from Maritime Books shows the underwater hull of the former HMS [i]Keppel[/i], beached awaiting scrapping.

Michael Purvis's paper "Post War RN Frigate and Guided Missile Destroyer Design 1944-1969" (Royal Institution of Naval Architects, 1974) shows the body plans for several ship designs but not of frigate type 14.

Did the Dean's Marine plan include a body plan for the hull???

Back in 2007 Dean's Marine sold Rob Kernaghan and me the assembly instruction plan for their kit of ASW frigate type 14 HMS [i]Hardy[/i]:

< [url]http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/cPath/10_31/products_id/472[/url] >

Along with photographs of actual ships, the above plan satisfied me as accurate enough for my model. [url]http://finewaterline.com/[/url] has a page in its gallery of small warships about how I modeled HMS [i]Palliser[/i]. There you can see the Dean's Marine plan in small scale with my mark-ups for fabricating PE parts.

Despite fax-quality resolution, the most accurate drawing I found is in Norman Friedman's [i]British Destroyers and Frigates, the Second World War and After[/i].

The Dean's Marine plan represents, I believe: [i]Dundas, Hardy, Keppel, Grafton, Murray[/i].

[i]Pellew, Russell, Exmouth[/i], and the three Indian navy frigates featured larger but fewer windows in the pilot house.

[i]Blackwood, Malcolm, Palliser, Duncan[/i] featured the same larger windows and initially mounted two pairs of torpedo tubes for Bidder ASW torpedoes. [i]Exmouth[/i] was reported as mounting the Bidder tubes but I never found a photograph to confirm that.

In the late 1950s the Bidder tubes and the aft 40mm Bofors gun were deleted from the RN frigates.

Hi Michael,

Unfortunately Jecobin don't do plans for the Type 14. Original plans from the NMM would be an option, except their charges are beyond my meager budget, esp when several plans are required. Therefore I'm on the hunt for other sources of accurate plans, or second-hand copies. I didn't know Dean's Marine sold plans separately, but I'm also keen to avoid errors.

Other models are on the virtual slipway (with aspirations for still more), all made from drawings and plans cobbled together from various sources, mostly second-hand.

Andy

Neat project to create a virtual model. Maybe Jecobin has plans for the type 14. I don't know whether Jecobin's plans are traced and scaled from official drawings, or instead are reconstructions from photographs. Dean's Marine sells plans for 1/96 models but those have errors, such as the length of the bulwark along the fo'csle.
The RN type 14 frigates varied in the pilot house, in the initial armament with Bidder torpedo tubes, and in the presence of the aft 40mm gun. The three Indian frigates matched the final version of the RN design except no torpedo tubes.
Have you virtual-modeled other ships?

Does anyone have any used/spare plans (outboard profile and body plan etc.) for the Type 14? I'd like to make a virtual model, but need good reference material.

Many thanks

Andy

Thank you for your comments, Jorit!

[quote]What were your experiences in using PE for hull construction? Would you use it again? [/quote]
This particular class of ship lent itself to fabricating the hull sides from PE. PE gave computer precision in the full-width deckhouse forward, the bulwarks amidships and by the mortars, the etched waterline (the waterline in this and other RN frigates is not horizontal), and in portholes both in alignment and size. You are correct that the junction with the plastic bow proved difficult but it has worked well enough.

Yes, I would do this again for a model that lends itself to PE. A Canadian [i]St. Laurent[/i]-class DDH is a possible future project. A lesson learned for future models is that I would design an internal support so that the lower edge of the PE hull would be the upper edge of the waterline. An alternative approach could be to create transverse hull sections in PE (if one has the body design with that detail) and loft PE hull sides over the framework.

The hull section for PE can bend in one dimension at most. In this particular design, a type 14 frigate, the main deck aft has a gentle curve, meaning a horizontal bend of the hull sides. This design has a slight knuckle along the deckhouse.

For armoured ships, a PE hull could have open casemates for broadside guns, an armour belt with accuracy in height and in visible thickness (it could be a separate strip of PE to laminate to the hull), portholes, hawse pipes, sheer, and anything else one can draw. The modeler might even design battle damage. The PE section of hull cannot have curved tumblehome, which would be a vertical radius.

Looking fantastic, Michael! :thumbs_up_1:

Particularly the joint in the hull where PE and plastic meet is very convincingly indiscernible! I must admit that I did find this a little bit daunting.

What were your experiences in using PE for hull construction? Would you use it again?

Jorit

PS: Will send you a mail later this week. :wink:

[b]Ahoy, mates: [/b]

Here is HMS [i]Palliser[/i] (F94) re-painted and with new fittings on the forward deckhouse:

[img]http://home.att.net/~potter4/DSC05590_800p.JPG[/img]

She has one set of scratch-built torpedo tubes and all three gun mounts. Weapons and and the deckhouses are dry-fit in this photo. The bulwark on the bow is correctly this length. I removed the early bulwark seen in the previous photo. The white towers amidships represent the insulated exhausts from the diesel generators.

The single Bofors 40mm guns comprise WEM PRO 7035 with WEM PE 735. They scale to 1/650. The foremast yards are from WEM PE 624. The ladders, doors, anchor cables, and some railings are from WEM PE 625. Almost all else is PE brass that I designed and etched: the deckhouses, the boat davits, the mortars, the torpedo tube fittings, both masts, the funnel, the catwalk, and the hull aft of the bow.

Andrew Welch's book [i]The RN in the Cod War[/i] (Maritime Books, 2006) describes the operations of type 14 frigates, including [i]Palliser[/i], in the arctic seas around Iceland. The RN used convoy ASW tactics to guard trawlers, or poachers if one prefers. This book is more interesting than I expected.

Thanks for your research! These I haven't seen. Both sound interesting:
[list=1][*]A specific 'Type 14 Frigates' article by Dr Richard Osborne.
[*]Captains, Resorts, Cats and Cathedrals - The Royal Navy's First Post-war Frigates by G.E. Watson (this gives the brief operational careers for the type 14's including Palliser) [/list]I have both of George Moore's articles from [i]Warship[/i]. He notes in both that the still-cheaper type 17 ASW frigate would have been larger than type 14.

Maritime Books' [i]The Cod Wars[/i] has a lot about type 14s. [i]Palliser[/i]'s CO recalled telling gunboat [i]Thor[/i]'s CO that if the latter tried to capture a British trawler (which had over-fished the waters around Britain) he would fire a salvo of 3 Mk 10 rounds to sink [i]Thor[/i]. It has photos of [i]Palliser[/i] at the time. One puzzled me until I realized that it's printed backwards.

I have located the following for you Mike do you have these?

1) A specific 'Type 14 Frigates' article by Dr Richard Osborne.

2)Captains, Resorts, Cats and Cathedrals - The Royal Navy's First Post-war Frigates by G.E. Watson (this gives the brief operational careers for the type 14's including [i]Palliser[/i])

3) As I mentioned earlier in another thread I was sure there was something in Conway's Warship. I was wrong it was not by John Lambert but another British author so the grey matter hasn't completely been wrecked!
In the annual for 1995 there is: The 1950s Coastal Frigate Designs for the Royal Navy by the late George Moore. That covers the Type 14's and has a photo of [i]Duncan [/i]launching at Thornycroft's yard. Further, there is also one taken of [i]Palliser[/i] F94 in September 1958 operating as a fishery protection vessel (from the stb. broadside perspective).

4) Further still, yet another article on them again by the late George Moore in the annual for 2001/2002 : The Blackwood Class, Type 14 Second Rate Frigates by George Moore. This time it includes a stb. close up photo of [i]Palliser[/i] on 30th December 1957. A close up photo from the port bow of [i]Russell[/i] on 15th June 1972. One of [i]Exmouth [/i]from the stb. broadside on the 8th August 1969 and finally one of [i]Hardy[/i] port broadside view at sea off Portland undated.

I haven't look through what photos I have yet, but I might have some more of various ships of the class.
If you would like any of that voluminous material I'll be able to sort it sometime in the next week in my spare time.
Cheers

:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Right. HMS [i]Palliser[/i] was among the latest five of the RN's type 14s to complete. As such she mounted torpedo tubes and featured a more modern pilot house, at least in appearance.

Looking good Mike, did you say this was going to be [i]Palliser?[/i]

I built the funnel and started assembly of the deckhouses. In this view the parts are dry-fit. Comparing photos of the dry-fit model to photos of actual ships helps to indicate fittings that still need fabrication.

[img]http://home.att.net/~potter4/DSC05403_crop.JPG[/img]

Wow don't know how I missed this thread, she's looking excellent already Mike :thumbs_up_1:

Are you alright for photos?

I airbrushed the hull to detect gaps and rough patches.

[img]http://home.att.net/~potter4/DSC05363c.JPG[/img]

Type 14 frigates had two variants of pilot house. I designed and fabricated both variants in PE brass. The model will have the variant in the bow view of an actual ship. The earlier frigates to complete had pilot houses with smaller windows.

Thank you for the nice comments and for the information about the actual class.

Yes, I design and fabricate the PE. For the PE process, see the article in this forum about HMS [i]Barrosa[/i].

If I can draw a part, I may as well make it in PE. Folding a large PE piece is easier than assembling smaller pieces.

This photo shows some new PE pieces, dry-fit on the model:

[img]http://home.att.net/~potter4/DSC05304.JPG[/img]

The funnel is temporary.

We called them the Emergency Class in the late 70's, by that time most were consigned to training ships, I still believe though that had war broken out they would have proved to be the second Flower Class, always assuming any war lasted long enough to build more gear!

Keep up the good work Mike.

Looks great so far. If you sell that PE, I'll buy a set :big_grin: :thumbs_up_1: