The Ship Model Forum

[quote="Laurence Batchelor"][quote="Mitrich"]And finally, the sketch of N3 that I have got from the National Archives (ADM 1/9232, Capital Ships: designs) is dated by June 1921. In "The Washington Cherrytrees" Mr. Campbell refers to a November 1921 design as final. A sketch of the N3 in his work differs quite significantly from what I have got. Is there any original drawings of the November 1921 design in the National Archives? If so, what reference number should I use dealing with them through the Internet?[/quote]

You will probably just have throw in key-words into the NA online catalogue and hope you find it.
As I mentioend earlier I believe there will also be relevant designers botebooks/diaries and papers in the British Library and possibly in engineering or science museums

[quote="Mitrich"]By the way, does anyone have a sketch or plan of a 18in turret, designed by Armstrong for the N3?[/quote].

Try 'Access to Archives' UK website and also the 'Archon Directory' search tool on the National Archives webside (it is in a dropdown menu)
I believe you will pehaps have to locate Armstrong's massive archivial collection and hope it has survived in there.[/quote]

Constructor's/Designer's workbooks are at the NMM (Brass Foundry) - but are not catalogued - if you know the constructor's name you will find it easily enough, but otherwise good luck.

B K Brown mentions that the DNC's papers are in the British Library - but also mentioned that the hand writing was atrocious and took a lot of effort to read.

The NMM have various 16"/50 gun and turret drawings including a time diagram showing the proposed 30 seconds loading cycle in the "VAO" series. I had a look once and you need lots of time and some pretty good muscles to move the boxes around.

.

[quote="Mitrich"]And finally, the sketch of N3 that I have got from the National Archives (ADM 1/9232, Capital Ships: designs) is dated by June 1921. In "The Washington Cherrytrees" Mr. Campbell refers to a November 1921 design as final. A sketch of the N3 in his work differs quite significantly from what I have got. Is there any original drawings of the November 1921 design in the National Archives? If so, what reference number should I use dealing with them through the Internet?[/quote]

You will probably just have throw in key-words into the NA online catalogue and hope you find it.
As I mentioend earlier I believe there will also be relevant designers notebooks/diaries and papers in the British Library and possibly in engineering or science museums

[quote="Mitrich"]By the way, does anyone have a sketch or plan of a 18in turret, designed by Armstrong for the N3?[/quote].

Try 'Access to Archives' UK website and also the 'Archon Directory' search tool on the National Archives webside (it is in a dropdown menu)
I believe you will pehaps have to locate Armstrong's massive archivial collection and hope it has survived in there.

And finally, the sketch of N3 that I have got from the National Archives (ADM 1/9232, Capital Ships: designs) is dated by June 1921. In "The Washington Cherrytrees" Mr. Campbell refers to a November 1921 design as final. A sketch of the N3 in his work differs quite significantly from what I have got. Is there any original drawings of the November 1921 design in the National Archives? If so, what reference number should I use dealing with them through the Internet?

By the way, does anyone have a sketch or plan of a 18in turret, designed by Armstrong for the N3?

Thanks!!!

[quote="Mitrich"]Finally, I have got the N3 sketch from the National Archives (ADM 1/9232, Capital Ships: designs). Interesting point - it has 16in 50-calibre main guns, not 18in. Could anyone explain this?[/quote]

Code. 16" 50 calibre = 18".

Finally, I have got the N3 sketch from the National Archives (ADM 1/9232, Capital Ships: designs). Interesting point - it has 16in 50-calibre main guns, not 18in. Could anyone explain this?

[quote="ar"]I did have fun when I used the Contract set of the G3 Battlecruisers and turned it into a completed vessel with the resulting drawing appearing in an early edition of Warship. It still looks good even today.[/quote]
It does indeed, Alan!

So you're saying that there are detailed drawings of the preliminary design, the one you illustrated? Could you say if there are deck plans and hull sections?

Any information in this direction would be most welcome, please, so that I know what to ask for at the NMM!

[quote="ar"]

AT the time of researching the Battleship book in the mid seventies, the constructors note books had not been passed to the NMM.

A little later when doing the Cruiser volume, Goddall's diaries had been passed to the museum, but I wea not allowed to look at them , because (they said)... they had not been catalogued. I was a little piqued, but that's the was it was. ............

[/quote]

They still haven't been catalogued. They are looking for a "volunteer(s)" to go through the boxes and sort out which constructor worked on which design and when - so if anyone is bored ............

[quote="Mitrich"]

Laurence,
Thank you for the info! I have tried to order N3 plans at NMM a couple of years ago but their answer was very straightforward, if I remember correctly: "We do not have such plans or drawings".[/quote]

Yes they recieve so many calls for information and plans often they will just give you a short and sweet answer and not one which is the most helpful for further searching.

[quote="ar"]
I did have fun when I used the Contract set of the G3 Battlecruisers and turned it into a completed vessel with the resulting drawing appearing in an early edition of Warship. It still looks good even today.[/quote]

Do you have a larger verison of that profile drawing than the one which appears in Campbell's Warship 4 parter?
It is gattered also, but looks very good.
Also did you draw the decks?

[quote="phil gollin"][quote="ar"]The answer to the three points that you raised is unfortunately; no, no and no. And ... I looked very hard. Mavbe somewhere at some time in the future...[/quote]

Thanks (but a shame)

Did you ever go through the designers' note books at the Brass Foundry ? D K Brown (and the staff at the Brass Foundry) are very strong in their suggestion that they are very useful.[/quote]

AT the time of researching the Battleship book in the mid seventies, the constructors note books had not been passed to the NMM.
A little later when doing the Cruiser volume, Goddall's diaries had been passed to the museum, but I wea not allowed to look at them , because (they said)... they had not been catalogued. I was a little piqued, but that's the was it was.
I did have fun when I used the Contract set of the G3 Battlecruisers and turned it into a completed vessel with the resulting drawing appearing in an early edition of Warship. It still looks good even today.

[quote="ar"]The answer to the three points that you raised is unfortunately; no, no and no. And ... I looked very hard. Mavbe somewhere at some time in the future...[/quote]

Thanks (but a shame)

Did you ever go through the designers' note books at the Brass Foundry ? D K Brown (and the staff at the Brass Foundry) are very strong in their suggestion that they are very useful.

The answer to the three points that you raised is unfortunately; no, no and no. And ... I looked very hard. Mavbe somewhere at some time in the future...

[quote="ar"]

The plans of the N3 and other Battleships of the time frame that I found, that were re-drawn ad placed in British Battleships by R&R are held not in the MOD but in the PRO.

[/quote]

Did you ever find either a sketch for the 1928 design(s) or a sketch for how the very first 1934/KGVs looked with 20 x 4.5-inch (i.e all on the same level [a la QE/Valiant] or "stacked" {like KGV/Vanguard/US fast battleships).

I find the 1928 design work very interesting - but haven't found the "thinking" that occured between them and the initial 1934 work.

[quote="Laurence Batchelor"]
D K Brown in a conversation with me considered both G3 & N3 were virtually there, apart from minor details.

I'm not sure which MoD archives would hold such material and that NMM advice sounds a red herring.
To my mind only the NMM or NA would hold such plans if they existed.
The only other things which might come to light are more sketches possibly in constructors notebooks, some of which are in the British Library.

Here's some of the things ar is talking about he saw many decades ago in the National Archives:

[b][url]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=battleships&txtfirstdate=1920&txtlastdate=1925&txtrestriction=ADM&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=55&image1.y=14[/url][/b]

[/quote]

Lawrence,
Thank you for the info! I have tried to order N3 plans at NMM a couple of years ago but their answer was very straightforward, if I remember correctly: "We do not have such plans or drawings".

Much humbled. Will never permit it to happen again.

[quote="Chuck"]I must work harder on improving my opacity.[/quote]
Nah. I think this was more of a lapse. I wouldn't worry.

I must work harder on improving my opacity.

Not really. This one is uncharacteristically transparent, though.

[quote="Werner"][quote="JWintjes"]Chuck, what is a "strike breaker"?
[/quote]
He means a ship or ships which will charge through the enemy's cruiser van and reconnoiter the enemy's disposition. Such a ship might then approach train or perhaps the carrier to wreck the enemy's ability to spot fall of shot.[/quote]

How cute, you and Chuck finish each other's thoughts now! :lol_1: