The Ship Model Forum

One suspects, based on the photographic evidence I've seen here, that there is more propaganda here than there is reality. Stealth technology is expensive, propaganda and photoshopped pictures are not. If N. Korea has anything they are dumping their available hard assets into it is their nuclear program. If they have any kind of "stealth" infiltration boats I'd expect them to be more along the lines of the "submarines" the Colombian drug smugglers were supposed to be using a few years ago. Most of them, if not all of them, had a bucket for a head! Real high tech.

Bob

Having the threat of specops raiding the coast would force the South Korean authorities into a massive deployment of (para)military forces along the -geologically complicated- coastline, protecting strategic facilities and the supply lines of the American relief forces. This would pull troops away from the north. It is North Korea's way of creating a second front and forcing the south to spread their forces.

They did send some "Stealth Boats" to the Tamil Tigers, but these are not those boats.

And, they did look like upside down boats.

My guess is that they pretty much were.

They took two hulls, and turned one of them upside down, cut it down, and then glued it to the top of the other, and inserted periscopes and other navigation aids.

And S. Korea has found more recent examples along their coasts, which look more advanced (carrying two to four men teams).

But, again... What do they think four men can do in South Korea when they are pretty much guaranteed to lose their ride back to N. Korea?

It seems that N. Korea is doing not a lot more than financing the defection of their Special Forces to S. Korea with these craft.

Either that or developing a crack photoshop force.

MB

The first photoshop looks more like a boat floating upside-down! N Korea's first attempt at stealth craft! :lol_3:

[quote="Haijun watcher"]Gentlemen,

While I appreciate your replies to my thread, aren't we getting off topic? I intended to focus on these vessels, not North Korean politics or the international relations of that hermit state.

Take note that there's the [url=http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewforum.php?f=39]Off-topic section[/url] where you can discuss politics or whatever you want.

MS[/quote]

Sorry, I meant that as a commentary on how NK managed to build the ship.

It is a pretty little thing.

I imagine we will get more images of it in the future as we make a greater effort to discover more about them.

I did find an article about Surface Effect Stealth Ships (SES or SESS) that N. Korea is developing:

[url]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/p-nongo.htm[/url]

With an image of them:

[img]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/images/p-nongo-image01-s.jpg[/img]

And another article about one-man VSVs that N. Korea Developed, and which were used by the Tamil Tigers:

But, like most things N. Korea that sound impressive, the supposed One Man Stealth river-craft seem to be more about Photoshopping techniques and technology than about Naval Technology:

[img]http://www.krcf.org/tiger/1024/IMG_0610.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.krcf.org/tiger/1024/Knowbotic_web2302.jpg[/img]

Mathematica says that the images have two different pixel aspect ratios, and that the location of the second aspect ration happens to be precisely where the ship is located. The former image is a better done job. The Pixel Aspect ratio for the ship is only off in one direction, and only by a fraction. So N. Korea's Photoshop technology is improving, as they learn about these things.

There seem to be a lot of articles in February of this year, and then again in the last few weeks, as N. Korea is trying to appear threatening to the South (and the USA).

MB

Gentlemen,

While I appreciate your replies to my thread, aren't we getting off topic? I intended to focus on these vessels, not North Korean politics or the international relations of that hermit state.

Take note that there's the [url=http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewforum.php?f=39]Off-topic section[/url] where you can discuss politics or whatever you want.

MS

[quote="biggles2"]So as long as the generals toady up to Kim they keep their jobs, and their heads! And their little piece of personal power. What about the bulk of their armed forces - the junior officers and enlisted men? That's where the latent power really lies! :wave_1:[/quote]

And there lies one of the great mysteries of N. Korea.

The West has not been able to figure out how the Military has managed to not suffer from any number of coups and rebellions among the rank-and-file.

It might be that the military takes families as hostages when someone enters the officer corps. This seems to be the theory that many accept. Or, at least those I know whose job it is to think about that sort of thing.

But the analogy of a Communist Mafia is not too far off the mark.

Iran is run by a similar Mafia, only it is religious. My Brother-in-Law is Iranian, and my first girlfriend was Iranian, and both of them (separated by 30 years) used the exact same words to describe the Ayatollahs in Iran: The Religious Mafia.

N. Korea only remains propped up because of China. And China has become less ideologically driven as a new generation of Pragmatists has risen to the higher ranks of the People's Communist Party China. And they all recognize that N. Korea cannot continue as it is, nor can China continue to hang such an Albatros around its neck (Especially when dealing with both Tibet, and the increasing pressure from Jihadis in Western China).

N. Korea remains even more opaque than was the Soviet Union and E. Germany in the years of the 50s - 60s.

MB

So as long as the generals toady up to Kim they keep their jobs, and their heads! And their little piece of personal power. What about the bulk of their armed forces - the junior officers and enlisted men? That's where the latent power really lies! :wave_1:

[quote="MatthewB"][quote="biggles2"]I may be naive in asking this, but what exactly is Kim's hold over the people and military of Korea...simply the fear of the criminally insane, and enforced ignorance? Does he keep his generals ratting on each other simply to live another day, and not be implicated in any plots? :wave_1:[/quote]

It is a rather complicated issue, which is not really well understood.

Part of it has to do with a system of intermarriages between the Kim Family and the Generals who mostly rule Korea, dating back to the Korean War era.

But due to the poverty of information coming out of the North, we do not have a complete picture of how power is maintained.

Part of the issue is simply that the only people with wealth are the Military. Everyone else is dirt-poor, and not exactly in the best of health, either.

And the North Korean Generals are trigger happy when it comes to anything they deem to be "dissent."

And Kim Jong-un controls a major portion of the Military in the same way that Julius Caesar and Octavian/Augustus did (Paying them out of his own pocket), giving him the ability to execute any generals who might be thinking too freely.

It is a system that is not sustainable, and even Beijing knows how precarious the situation is with North Korea.

The fact that they have managed to build something like this indicates that Beijing has been providing them with help that is probably forbidden.

MB[/quote]

So N.Korea is run by a communist Mafia! :big_grin:

[quote="pgollin"][color=#0000FF][quote="steviecee"][i]what I notice in pictures is that the supreme leader is chubby while everyone else is scrawny[/i][/quote][/color]

Would YOU tell him that face-to-face ?[/quote]

Yes... As long as I was not in N. Korea.

But there are other "Chubby" members of the N. Korean High Command. They remain few in number though, as being overweight in N. Korea is seen as being unpatriotic (it is seen as being overly indulgent and selfish).

Jong-un, though, is no longer just "Chubby" but is outright FAT now.

I give him ten more years, tops, before something happens to him.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but he seems to have no heir.

He is also the youngest of his father's sons, but the other two has shown to be much less than obviously contemptuous of the communist ideology. Both are highly critical of their father's regime (since they are safely outside of N. Korea, living in Macau and Singapore Respectively (and both tend to like things like visiting Disneyland, and attending decadent Western Rock Music performances). Kim Jong-un was left as the heir-apparent.

And, reports of his time in Switzerland show that he paid a lot of lip-service to Communist Ideology (while hypocritically flaunting his wealth). He also sucked up to his father, knowing enough to show ideological deference to his father, who was insane and demented enough to be taken in by what was likely obvious flattery.

They are one messed up Family, and it is likely that the possessors of N. Korea's nuclear technology will eventually take over the government (assuming that N. Korea doesn't do something utterly insane like trying to deploy one of those supposed nuclear warheads).

MB

[color=#0000FF][quote="steviecee"][i]what I notice in pictures is that the supreme leader is chubby while everyone else is scrawny[/i][/quote][/color]

Would YOU tell him that face-to-face ?

what I notice in pictures is that the supreme leader is chubby while everyone else is scrawny

[quote="biggles2"]I may be naive in asking this, but what exactly is Kim's hold over the people and military of Korea...simply the fear of the criminally insane, and enforced ignorance? Does he keep his generals ratting on each other simply to live another day, and not be implicated in any plots? :wave_1:[/quote]

It is a rather complicated issue, which is not really well understood.

Part of it has to do with a system of intermarriages between the Kim Family and the Generals who mostly rule Korea, dating back to the Korean War era.

But due to the poverty of information coming out of the North, we do not have a complete picture of how power is maintained.

Part of the issue is simply that the only people with wealth are the Military. Everyone else is dirt-poor, and not exactly in the best of health, either.

And the North Korean Generals are trigger happy when it comes to anything they deem to be "dissent."

And Kim Jong-un controls a major portion of the Military in the same way that Julius Caesar and Octavian/Augustus did (Paying them out of his own pocket), giving him the ability to execute any generals who might be thinking too freely.

It is a system that is not sustainable, and even Beijing knows how precarious the situation is with North Korea.

The fact that they have managed to build something like this indicates that Beijing has been providing them with help that is probably forbidden.

MB

I may be naive in asking this, but what exactly is Kim's hold over the people and military of Korea...simply the fear of the criminally insane, and enforced ignorance? Does he keep his generals ratting on each other simply to live another day, and not be implicated in any plots? :wave_1:

[quote="Haijun watcher"]How they can have these when their other special forces still practice using Soviet-era AN-2 biplanes for parachuting into South Korean territory? :heh:

[url=http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/meet-north-koreas-speedy-stealthy-boats/]Diplomat[/url]

[quote][b][size=200]Meet North Korea's Speedy, Stealthy Boats[/size][/b]

Plus, nuclear diplomacy, North Korea, U.S.-India relations, and more. Weekend links.

A few curated defense and security links to close off the week:

North Korea is reportedly developing Very Slender Vessels (VSV), a type of high-speed stealth-capable ship designed for infiltration operations. VSVs have a low profile and traverse waves by cutting through them. South Korean officials are describing the VSVs as a “new threat” to their security. If the North manages to develop a traditional VSV, it could plausibly use it to allow its special forces to infiltrate South Korean territory. North Korea already possesses semi-submersible boats that offer similar infiltration and stealth advantages — they simply lack the speed and maneuverability of a VSV. Fortunately, South Korea has been investing quite a bit in its navy and coastal surveillance capabilities.

The top nuclear envoys of the United States, South Korea, and China will meet in Beijing to discuss reactions to North Korea’s recent belligerent posturing. As The Diplomat reported recently, this meeting comes on the heels of a U.S.-Japan-South Korea trilateral meeting on the same issue. Cooperation between these four countries on North Korea represents the closest we might get to “five-party unity” — they represent four out of the five states on the other side of North Korea at the long-stalled Six-Party Talks (Russia is the other member, but has recently grown closer to Pyongyang).

(...SNIPPED)[/quote]

[img]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03320/slender3_3320295b.jpg[/img]
South Korea first learned that its neighbour was developing VSVs late last year when satellites caught images of early tests with the new technology in the East Sea[/quote]

I have often wondered what N. Korea has to gain from being so militaristic, or by the insertion of Special Forces into the South.

While Russia tends to just be contrarian with their relationships with Pyongyang (The USA does not like N. Korea, nor do other countries Russia has long been at odds with - Japan - so it seeks to cozy up to N. Korea, even with nothing really to gain from doing so), Beijing is not so Contrarian, and only a Traditional Relationship with N. Korea keeps them "allied."

The people I know in China (Xiamen, Beijing, Hong Kong/Shenzen/Dongguan/Guangzhou, Shanghai, Tianjin) all say that most Chinese do not approve of their country's relationship with N. Korea, but "Official Policy" prevents them from publicly speaking out on the issue.

All N. Korea has to gain from provocations is further isolation and decay.

It is not likely that N. Korea will last past Jong-un's administration (if even that).

MB

How they can have these when their other special forces still practice using Soviet-era AN-2 biplanes for parachuting into South Korean territory? :heh:

[url=http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/meet-north-koreas-speedy-stealthy-boats/]Diplomat[/url]

[quote][b][size=200]Meet North Korea's Speedy, Stealthy Boats[/size][/b]

Plus, nuclear diplomacy, North Korea, U.S.-India relations, and more. Weekend links.

A few curated defense and security links to close off the week:

North Korea is reportedly developing Very Slender Vessels (VSV), a type of high-speed stealth-capable ship designed for infiltration operations. VSVs have a low profile and traverse waves by cutting through them. South Korean officials are describing the VSVs as a “new threat” to their security. If the North manages to develop a traditional VSV, it could plausibly use it to allow its special forces to infiltrate South Korean territory. North Korea already possesses semi-submersible boats that offer similar infiltration and stealth advantages — they simply lack the speed and maneuverability of a VSV. Fortunately, South Korea has been investing quite a bit in its navy and coastal surveillance capabilities.

The top nuclear envoys of the United States, South Korea, and China will meet in Beijing to discuss reactions to North Korea’s recent belligerent posturing. As The Diplomat reported recently, this meeting comes on the heels of a U.S.-Japan-South Korea trilateral meeting on the same issue. Cooperation between these four countries on North Korea represents the closest we might get to “five-party unity” — they represent four out of the five states on the other side of North Korea at the long-stalled Six-Party Talks (Russia is the other member, but has recently grown closer to Pyongyang).

(...SNIPPED)[/quote]

[img]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03320/slender3_3320295b.jpg[/img]
South Korea first learned that its neighbour was developing VSVs late last year when satellites caught images of early tests with the new technology in the East Sea