The Ship Model Forum

Here are two more photos of my recently completed 1/350 Bretagne.

[attachment=0]Bretagne 07.JPG[/attachment]OK, yesterday I finished my 1:350 model of the Bretagne (1939-40). The resin hull was a lot of work to finish off, and I had to improvise or scratchbuild a number of deck features and cut away about 5 mm of the separate boat deck because it otherwise wouldn't fit where it it supposed to go. Based on online photographs the model seems to have features of both the Provence and Bretagne, and may be based on images from the War Thunder video game (as was my recent model of the IJN heavy cruiser Furutaka).

Hi Jim! You're one of the model shipbuilding masters whom I have admired for many years, and you are correct -- what looked like square or rectangular openings with pipes protruding were, based on the post-1928 photo you provided, merely additional portholes with hinged scuttles that open to the rear of the porthole. NOW I've got to fix what I had scratch-built, but I happen to have photoetch portholes with scuttles attached (they came in handy when I built my Trumpeter 1908 SMS Schleswig-Holstein) and so it should be a relative easy fix. Too bad . . . I had installed the muzzles of secondary guns from my spares stash as the "pipes" protruding ever so slightly from the holes I had drilled, and then surrounded with sharpy-inked boxes! In hindsight, the reality makes more sense than my attempts to reproduce what I saw in a photo without quite enough resolution. Thanks for your reply!

Hello JB here! I dont think the 'square' openings are square ! :wave_1:

I think your photo shows what in the lower image--large portholes with open lids

Also have a look at my 1/700 Bretagne model built around 18 years ago (!) if you wish

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/fr/bretagne/700-wsw-jb/bretagne.html



see enclosed image of Bretagne

OK, I've successfully scratch-built the missing chocks on my 1/350 full hull SSModel Bretagne; I also managed to install the stern anchor and its attachments and clamps. My last hull issue with this kit involves the 7 or 8 apparently small square openings on each side of the hull between the casemates and the armor belt. Can anyone tell me what these are? The available photos [attachment=0]French battleship Bretagne ca. 1939.jpg[/attachment] seem to show square openings with a short pipe protruding through, as though they are some type of drain for waste liquids from inside the ship. I'm trying to figure out how to simulate them on my model.

I, too, purchased the SSModel battleship Bretagne, but in a different version -- the one has the fully complete bridge with tripod and finely printed yardarms, but the hull is a traditional 2-part cream-colored resin set in which the upper and lower sections do not match laterally -- overlap of the upper half in various places in the rear half of this section. They were also slightly warped, which problem I solved when gluing the two halves together by drilling holes in the keel and installing screws through the lower half into the upper half while gluing the two parts together and using various clamps to fix them in place. I still had to add some Evergreen plastic strips beneath the overhangs and do a lot of puttying and sanding to eventually get a satisfactory full hull with a smooth surface where both halves merged; also had to add a few mm of length (with putty) to the lower section bow and stern to match the top hull half. What is further annoying is that various deck fixtures for mooring (the large chocks with bulges where the deck meets the hull, both on the forecastle and quarter decks, and the similar chocks at the very tip of both bow and stern) are completely absent and will have to be scratch-built for authenticity. I'll also make an attempt at a scratch-built capstan for the forecastle (nothing in my extensive plastic spare parts stash is a match). It's odd, but not problematic, that the secondary (5.45-in.) secondary gun barrels in both resin and brass number 22, the number for when the ship was first built, not the 14 in place by 1939 (with pairs of casemates plated over near the bow and stern on both sides of the ship). I, too, found the 3D-printed mainmast to be warped and easily bent, but with the help of a candle flame I straightened it out. The last major issue with this kit is that the third (rearmost) superstructure deck (the boat deck, with the stump of the mainmast and searchlight platform) is too long to fit into the available deck space once the two forward sections (bridge, funnels and central turret) have been installed. I had to cut away the forward end (about 5 mm of width) in order to install it and still leave room for the fourth turret to swing clear of the base of the mainmast and rear rangefinder. A close examination of various photographs of the Bretagne taken during the last few years of her career don't seem to show the structures of this deck that I removed, so they probably won't be missed. The building process of this model continues . . .

A beautiful colorized shot of a well-known photo of the Battleship Bretagne.

The colors seem right for the time, around 1916.

The brick red of the antifouling is only present to a height of about 1.30 m, underneath it's Paris green or Schweinfurt green.

https://journals-openedition-org.translate.goog/hms/4370?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[img]https://i.servimg.com/u/f46/15/66/64/48/323d2910.jpg[/img]

The Iceman 200 3 D scratch model ...is to date....

[u]THE [/u] datum line for Bretagne... !



http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=366021



Had I only... all those years ago...
when I built my Delphis Bretagne ....
known of all the excellent images that Iceman has found and analysed !

Hi all,

I took the plunge and bought the new SS Model 3D printed kit of Bretagne. Even though I have very little knowledge of the details of the ship itself, this kit has several issues. Thought I'd post some pictures here to get some feedback.

This will be a "review" of sorts, so if this should be in the Reviews section it can be moved there, but I have some questions, so hopefully I can get some answers in this thread.

First up, it comes with virtually non existent instructions, just a sheet with 5 poorly printed close-ups from the CAD drawings showing the assembled areas for the few part "sprues".

[attachment=6]Bretagne kit (1).jpg[/attachment]

The kit is cast in an orange-coloured resin. There is a waterline hull that looks nice at first glance, cleanly printed, but then the decks are smooth as ice - no grooves for wood planks. I've seen Jim Bauman's Bretagne and it has wood decks, but I've also seen pictures that suggest the decks were steel (at least as built) maybe with a corticene-like covering???

The forecastle deck is also missing the capstan for the port anchor chain.

[attachment=5]Bretagne kit (8).jpg[/attachment]

The kit should be an extremely simple build as the superstructure parts are printed in 4 pieces only - bridge with fore-funnel (with all platforms)and middle turret deck, foremast with spotting top, rear funnel, aft superstructure including boat deck. These are printed in a protective "crate" sort of like a milk crate (as are the other parts). In the same "crate" are the main turrets and cranes.

There are brass barrels for the main and secondary armaments, but no PE.

[attachment=4]Bretagne kit (3).jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=3]Bretagne kit (7).jpg[/attachment]

The above pics show the superstructure "crate", the second with the sides removed. I noticed slots on the bridge wings for the secondary directors (which I ID'd from photos/drawings), but there are no directors in the kit. Also missing are the prominent horizontal aerials on either side of the spotting top. I'll have to see what I can figure out to replace those.

[attachment=2]Bretagne kit (6).jpg[/attachment]

Above is the mainmast which is 3D printed, but the topmast is so thin, it's bent like a palm tree in a hurricane! It'll need replacement. Other part "crates" below, boats and AA guns.

[attachment=1]Bretagne kit (4).jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]Bretagne kit (5).jpg[/attachment]

My main concern right now are the hull decks. Were they wood planked in WW2 or were they steel?

And should corticene be applied to superstructure steel decks? Would that have been the case in WW2? Or were they dark grey as depicted in some drawings?

See this Britmodeller thread:

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235113496-battleship-bretagne-france-3d-realisation-1200-scale/
The CAD images in this thread are for her WW1 fit.

Thanks in advance for any help!

About colors:

Some other references here:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=46997&start=40

Cuirassé Bretagne 1/200:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=366021

Plans & Drawings:
General list : http://www.shipmodell.com/index_files/0PLAN5A.html#2S

Battleship Bretagne plans:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B32-8ZWvIt6UM29ENHIwWV9jSnc/view?resourcekey=0-JqQ1XC8GHZ7QPDNXfRG9kg

From the french book & plans " Les Cuirassés de 23 500 tonnes":

[img]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71SQMk2u79L.jpg[/img]

"5. Special paints and marks:
51. Paintings:

The hull up to the waterline is painted green (Schweinfurth green), the topsides and the superstructures are grey-bluish, a classic color since its adoption in February 1908. Only the strake at the top of the funnels is black.

From 1915, that is to say during the period of the tests, the steel of the 340 turrets and their guns was stripped bare and treated with a "greasy plug" to prevent corrosion. These "fat plugs" contained a mixture of grease and lampblack, which gives the main artillery turrets that shiny black hue seen in photos from this era.

Towards the end of the war (1918), the shaft of the rear mast. is painted black in its upper half to avoid soiling due to fumes. Pursuant to the Ministerial Circular of November 30, 1920, the tranche of waterline is painted black over a height of one meter (0.50 m from and the other side of the water line 10).

The launch boats are painted bluish gray with white interior. The vertical parts of the deckhouses of the launches are kept "clear" or varnished if they are wooden, otherwise they are painted the color of the boat. The roofs are painted gray for the steamers, white for the launches.

52. Specific marks:

Since 1912, the particular marks of battleships and cruisers consist of white rings painted around one of the funnels. These rings make it possible, within a squadron, to identify the division to which it belongs and the rank of a ship in this division. The code used has already been explained during the presentation of Courbet type battleships.

Between 1916, the year of their entry into service, and their first overhaul, the three Class "Bretagne" frequently changed particular marks, so the study of the latter is the subject of a table in the appendix, common to all battleships. of 23,500 tons."

[url=https://postimg.cc/8jRjg974][img]https://i.postimg.cc/3J6pmH7s/20221223133437.png[/img][/url]

From the book " French battleships of WW1 " :

[url=https://postimg.cc/dk9wxPHZ][img]https://i.postimg.cc/bJ7rdq1g/815hds-A6-JNL.jpg[/img][/url]
Jean Bart in drydock 1916. You can see the 3 bands..

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/g0G06MX9/20221223133402.png[/img][/url]

Extract from the book by Laurent Roblin and Luc Féron. "La Royale à la Belle Epoque".

[url=https://postimg.cc/1fXsJdp4][img]https://i.postimg.cc/gkqjkFjy/719-ZR0s-JRLL.jpg[/img][/url]

In 1995, Laurent Roblin, chief curator of the Musée de la Batellerie in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, discovered a large metal box at the bottom of one of the museum's storage rooms. Inside, fourteen boxes of glass plates? This collection, which had been sleeping in a storeroom since 1967, turns out to be of inestimable value.

What are we looking at?

223 images of exceptional quality and totally unpublished, based on the theme of the Royale, the French Navy, from 1895 to 1914.

Translate:

"The boundary between the dead and the live works is materialized by a white band about 25 cm above the waterline.

As far as the color of the living works is concerned, the campaign specifications all specify, when the matter is mentioned, that during the passages in the basin, the hull was repainted with "Schwein-furth green". We also owe Jean Guiglini the formula for the composition of this painting, and we give it here for the benefit of model builders who would like to get a closer look at reality. (Extract from the magazine LA NATURE ler semestre 1930 p. 47).

- Mercury soap 15%
- Rosin 20%
- Turpentine 20%
- Lead soap 15%
- Linseed oil 20%
- Copper acetoarsenate 15%


This last material, toxic for marine organisms, and having a very bright aquamarine green color, gives this paint its tint and its anti-shellfish and algae characteristics (nowadays, it looks like an "antifouling" paint)
But the problem is not so simple! Indeed, the black and white photographs of the building taken during this period all show, under the white net of the waterline, a dark area that cannot be the result of a green tint. Furthermore, the paintings, watercolors and colored postcards generally show a red area under the white line in question. Finally, the estimates for the work done on various buildings at that time, and on the Bouvet in particular, mention, in addition to the Schweinfurth" green, the use of lead minium in large quantities.

The explanation seems clear to us and is, for example, visible in the photo of the Carnot at the basin. While the minium was used as a protective layer against rust, a layer of "Schweinfurth green" was applied afterwards to protect the hull as much as possible against organic dirt. When floating, the main problem is corrosion - it is the oxygen in the air that attacks the iron; this is probably the reason why an area of about one meter, painted with minium, was kept at the top of the living works, just under the white border.

[url=https://postimg.cc/xkTkR5TR][img]https://i.postimg.cc/QMcpjY2R/20221223130218.png[/img][/url]

Yes !
The Delphis kit so far has awesome casting :) :thumbs_up_1:

Thanks Martin for your input !

[quote="Atma"]Thanks again Martin, compared to the HP kit, in your opinion wich is better, casting wise. Delphis or HP ?
Thanks in advance.[/quote]

The Delphis kit, even though it's older, is better cast, in my opinion.

Thanks again Martin, compared to the HP kit, in your opinion wich is better, casting wise. Delphis or HP ?
Thanks in advance.

[quote="Atma"]I might order the Delphis Models Bretagne class battleship in 1/700, any comments/impressions/accuracy etc about the Delphis model ?
Thanks in advance.[/quote]

Check out the 1/700 Delphis [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/fr/bretagne/700-wsw-jb/bretagne.html]Bretagne[/url] by Jim Baumann - he makes comments on the quality of the kit.

EDIT: Here are a few photos of the Delphis kit parts. Newer castings I've seen have the funnels as part of the hull. HP France is in the background.

I might order the Delphis Models Bretagne class battleship in 1/700, any comments/impressions/accuracy etc about the Delphis model ?
Thanks in advance.

[b][u]Available kits (all in 1/700)[/u]:[/b]
HP Models Provence (1940)
HP Models Lorraine (1944)
Delphis Models Bretagne

[b][u]Gallery[/u]:[/b]
1/700 Delphis [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/fr/bretagne/700-wsw-jb/bretagne.html]Bretagne[/url] by Jim Baumann

[quote="Cliffy B"]
[i]Les Cuirassés de 23 500 Tonnes[/i] sounds like its the best bet as books go. While looking around on the net for a stateside copy I keep finding the 1980 edition. Is that the only one available or is there a newer one out there? The French website doesn't mention and I just want to be sure I'm not missing out on a newer copy with extra stuff :big_grin: Its a shame I didn't take French in high school, took Spanish instead, d'oh! Guess I'll learn the hard way :big_grin: I always wanted to learn it anyway so it'll be a neat experience. I put in a request at my local library to see if they track down a copy. They're usually pretty good about finding books within their network. We'll see what turns up. If they can't find it I'll order a copy.

-Mike[/quote]
Mike, the French website has the latest edition (04/2005). Photos are normal to large size and drawings are double page format. Even without speaking French at all, there are lots of photos and drawings. And, if you'll need some additional assistance, as I own a copy, i will help you :smallsmile:

Gilbert

Awesome guys, thanks a million for the line drawings and the info!

[i]Les Cuirassés de 23 500 Tonnes[/i] sounds like its the best bet as books go. While looking around on the net for a stateside copy I keep finding the 1980 edition. Is that the only one available or is there a newer one out there? The French website doesn't mention and I just want to be sure I'm not missing out on a newer copy with extra stuff :big_grin: Its a shame I didn't take French in high school, took Spanish instead, d'oh! Guess I'll learn the hard way :big_grin: I always wanted to learn it anyway so it'll be a neat experience. I put in a request at my local library to see if they track down a copy. They're usually pretty good about finding books within their network. We'll see what turns up. If they can't find it I'll order a copy.

How's Wayne's French BB book? I have his US BB book and was not very impressed by it. I bought it mainly because I love his paintings and was thrilled when I found he released them in a book. I got it only to find that they are TINY (maybe 3"x5" at most) and horribly pixelated, same goes for the line drawings :doh_1: Being an artist I know all about taking precautions to make sure your work isn't pirated but that's a little extreme, oh well. Is the French one the same way? :frown_2:

Thanks again guys!
-Mike

http://dash63.livejournal.com/ one more illustration from this site
ciao peppe