The Ship Model Forum

This is an FYI - In researching roll-off depth charge racks at the stern for the Kagero class, I realized that the FineMolds kits for the late war Ushio and Akebono are in error. The kits retain the original tracks for dropping mines, and then later, single depth charges when, in fact, there should be roll-off depth charge racks in their place.

There are aftermarket d-c rack sets available. Rainbow comes to mind for one.

[quote="Dan K"]Ah. Well, the IJN installed single 40mm mounts (Vickers design) on the Hatsuharu, Shiratsuyu, and some Asashio class ships as built. Almost all were replaced by wartime, though some ships retained theirs for a few months into the war. Those were all replaced by 25mm twins.

Confused yet, Mike? :smallsmile:[/quote]

I'm not sure confused is the correct word, it's more like I wasn't aware the IJN had upgraded the destroyer AA by late 41/early 42. I remember most of the models back in the day (like to 70's Tamiya destroyer kits) only having single MG's for the early war fit models. It sounds like to me that is that there may have been ones still carrying single MG's by WW2, so if that's what the model has, that's what it'll get, I guess with the IJN, it might be difficult to prove what every ship was fitted with all the time.

thanks
Mike

Ah. Well, the IJN installed single 40mm mounts (Vickers design) on the Hatsuharu, Shiratsuyu, and some Asashio class ships as built. Almost all were replaced by wartime, though some ships retained theirs for a few months into the war. Those were all replaced by 25mm twins.

Confused yet, Mike? :smallsmile:

I was looking at my kit of Hatsuharu, which I know isn't a Fubuki but I noticed the Yamashita Fubuki's had twin guns and the Hatsuharu only had single mg's, just made me wonder, if it was a general thing for Japanese destroyers to have had single Mg's replaced by twins, or maybe it was just a Fubuki thing, or differed on individual ships.

thanks
Mike

[quote]Was it the same on other Japanese destroyers, or did they have single 13.2 guns?
[/quote]

Assuming that I understand your question correctly -

At the outset of the war, only the classes prior to the Fubukis carried any single 13.2mm guns, IIRC. The exception was the Type III Fubukis; they had two single 13mm guns mounted midships, on either side of the deckhouse, inbetween #2 funnel and the RDF/searchlight compartment.

During the war, there were undoubtedly many adhoc instances of DDs carrying single 7.7mm or 13.2mm guns. For instance, there is that well-known photo of Shirayuki at the Bismarck Sea with a 13mm atop a TT mount, surrounded by sandbags.

Shirayuki also shows that many of the Type Is were modified either immediately pre-war or early on to carry two twin 13mm mounts on a revised platform in front of #1 funnel.

Late in the war, destroyers across all classes could carry a mix of 13.2mm and 25mm single mounts.

[quote="Dan K"]Sorry, didn;t see this until now.

1). The WoW layout is more correct, particularly around # 1 turret. The brown decking is linoleum.

2) Most Japanese sources indicate that the Type I s entered the war with a twin 13mm mount in front of funnel #2. Please see the Shinonome photo below. (btw, Shinonome is in drydock to repair collision damage to her torpedo reload girders.) Fubuki's last dockyard visit was in April, 1942 for maintenance, so I think it unlikely that her AA fit changed before being sunk.

3) The davits for the small motor launch aft on the starboard side should be moved forward slightly in the Tamiya kit, so that #2 TT mount can rotate and fire. See the Shirayuki photo below. Side views show the boat to be raised OVER the height of the tubes, so there was clearance.

HTH.[/quote]

I've got a couple of Yamashita Fubuki's and was wondering about those twin AA guns. Was it the same on other Japanese destroyers, or did they have single 13.2 guns?

thanks
Mike

That makes six different kits of the Type IIs, including immediately pre-war (Shikinami), early war (Ayanami, Sagiri), mid-war (Amagiri), and late war (Akebono, Ushio). Interestingly enough, Fine Molds provides the unique compass bridge deck (aka navigation or command deck) facing and roof that applied to the subgroup that included Amagiri, Asagiri, Sagiri, and Yugiri. This facing is slighly angular, whereas the other ships had a smooth, rounded facing.

Now, if they would only branch off into the Type Is and IIIs....

A couple of new Fubukis from Fine Molds' 1/350 series:

Sagiri October 1941: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10977192

Akebono late war: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10977189

Going off thread, but just to clarify, Nowaki was not sunk. In fact, she made a spectacular escape from a hail of shells bracketing her. Maikaze, and possibly, Katori, launched their torpedoes before being sunk. And, their aim was very good. According to Adm. Frederick C. Sherman, aircraft from his task force had been ordered to only orbit overhead. Apparently, the torpedoes were seen by a couple of F6Fs that managed to alert the BBs just in time to turn. Torpedoes just passed through New Jersey's wake. Otherwise.........

None of the 1/700 directors has internals. L & W gives some of the better listings. I suppose there might be a list in one of the Navtech documents.

[quote="Dan K"]I can't stand steel PE, and in this day and age, it seems unnecessary.

Rainbow makes five different sets of fire control directors in both 1/700 and 1/350 that can be posed with internals exposed. Resin and PE. However, they are for capitol ships, not DDs. Set V does have Type 94 directors, but these are only applicable to the Akizukis, if using them for a DD.

[quote]ere there ever any daylight Surface Actions in the Pacific??? [/quote]


While David's post is correct for 1944, there were no daylight surface actions in the mid-'42 thru '43 time frame that I can think of, save for a couple of minor, post action skirmishes. In early 1942, I believe the 1st Battle of the Java Sea began in the late afternoon. The 2nd Battle of the Java Sea was definitely a daytime surface action.

Back to Feb, 1944, off Truk, Katori, Maikaze and Nowaki faced off against part of Task Force 50.9 (Iowa, New Jersey, Minneapolis, New Orleans, and 4 DDs) during daytime.[/quote]

O.O

A Light Cruiser and some Destroyers faced off against two of the most powerful BBs to exist, two of the most powerful CAs, and some of our better DDs???!!!

In having just read about this, it seems that only Iowa and the two Cruisers really “did” anything, in the former sinking Katori, and the latter sinking Nowaki and Maikaze (It seems “New Jersey” threw some weight at Maikaze as well… And aided in sinking the Akagi Maru they were supposed to be escorting … other accounts credit this to Iowa???).

Several of the accounts cite Spruance as ordering the Surface Action, when the ships could have been easily finished off by Aircraft.

Edit:

The Rainbow 1/700 Directors (BB, CA, or not) with the shutters that can be posed “open,” do they also make the “internals” that would be exposed?

I have found a huge number of 1/700 IJN “Crew” that are 3D printed that would function as the operators (most bending down to look through the eyepieces of Rangefinders, or Fire Control Computers)…

But what is up there in the directors? I know the Sokutekiban tends to be mounted separately from the Director, which I see in some cases the Hoiban is located, but it seems that more than one thing is up there, given that the two wing stations in most of these directors would not be close enough to the given stations of the Hoiban as given in the Lacroix & Wells book… But then I am just getting around to looking into what they stuffed inside their copious lookouts, director, rangefinder, and other stations.

And, what would be going-on at the huge number of Binoculars and spotters that tend to exist with the Japanese? I assume these stayed manned, even at General Quarters/Action Stations?

I see that Fivestar Models has some stuff that might be in a director or Lookout Post (Or the Sokutekiban station above or below the Director, depending upon ship)…

But it would be nice to see a more complete list (I think Lacroix & Wells describe the directors for the cruisers, and I recall some line-drawings of the plan and stations)….

If you might know of where to find such a list or diagrams, please???




MB

I can't stand steel PE, and in this day and age, it seems unnecessary.

Rainbow makes five different sets of fire control directors in both 1/700 and 1/350 that can be posed with internals exposed. Resin and PE. However, they are for capitol ships, not DDs. Set V does have Type 94 directors, but these are only applicable to the Akizukis, if using them for a DD.

[quote]ere there ever any daylight Surface Actions in the Pacific??? [/quote]


While David's post is correct for 1944, there were no daylight surface actions in the mid-'42 thru '43 time frame that I can think of, save for a couple of minor, post action skirmishes. In early 1942, I believe the 1st Battle of the Java Sea began in the late afternoon. The 2nd Battle of the Java Sea was definitely a daytime surface action.

Back to Feb, 1944, off Truk, Katori, Maikaze and Nowaki faced off against part of Task Force 50.9 (Iowa, New Jersey, Minneapolis, New Orleans, and 4 DDs) during daytime.

[quote="Dan K"]Yep.

Both Rainbow and Five Star make 1/700 PE funnel grills. Or adapt one of the Tetra PE frets made for various YH Fubukis, I suppose.[/quote]

The Tetra PE are made with a slightly thicker brass than are many others. I have used a few of the Steel PE on one ship, and they are a strange critter.

Fivestar Models makes several [i][b]very[/b] complete[/i] PE sets for a variety of Fubuki outfits, and despite the lack of complete instructions (something he seems to be correcting) the sets are some of the best I have seen for 1/700. His addition of new 3D printed components is also good, if not some of the best in the market.

Damn! I want to get back into the studio to do some more work on things, now that it is functionally complete (I still have some elements to complete for adding minor storage, or “decorative” elements (like enclosing the desks and working surfaces with roll-tops so that I can safely allow the cats in when not there to supervise them).

Sorry, rambling…

MB

Edit:

Dan,

Do you know of anyone who does things like IJN directors and such that are in the Fighting configuration, with all the shutters open, and the internal bits visible?

Or is that a scratch-build project?

Since I have been “put back together” so to speak (restored function to my left arm, and dealt with the Osteomyelitis that kept being a potentially fatal problem), and the studio is workable again, I wanted to begin doing work like adding crew and details to the ships showing them in fighting trim for the Night Battles of 1942/43 (Were there ever any daylight Surface Actions in the Pacific??? I need to look into that).

MB

Didn't see this one coming - Finemolds will be releasing a 1/350 Akebono 1944 and a 1/350 Sagiri pre-war fit in August.

Finemolds annoucement: https://www.finemolds.co.jp/2023SHS-new.html

Akebono on Hobbysearch Japan: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10977189

Sagiri on Hobbysearch Japan: https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10977189

Very welcome, though I'd sure wish they would tool a Uranami, which would just take a few changes to the bridge and turrets. Which could then lead to a Type I. A Type III would need a few more tweaks.

Without knowing what sources they reference, it's hard to accept a couple of those details. Most of it appear correct. However:

[quote]six canisters for spare torpedoes (only for the medium TA remained[/quote]

I'm not sure exactly what they are trying to say, but all the Fubukis retained storage for nine reloads after modernization

[quote] 2x2-25-mm anti-aircraft guns were installed,[/quote]

Not true. 25mm AA mounts were not added to any of the Fubukis until late 1942 - 1943.

My information comes from several sources - the Gran Prix Shuppan volume on IJN DDs, the Mechanism books, Japanese Wikipedia, Gakken volume #s 18 & 70 (which is solely about the Fubukis) and some other sources.

Some other Fubuki specific pics

Thanks, this last picture is really helpful, awesome quality.

In the meantime I found the complete story of Fubuki in the "Navygaming" magazine (from the publishers of World of Warships) issue 2/2016 and here are two interesting mentions of changes I found (auto translated from russian):

[b]From the end of August 1933 to December 1933[/b], in Sasebo, at the shipyard of the fleet, they carried out maintenance repairs on the hull and mechanisms, installed new type 91 torpedo firing devices, bulletproof, gas-protective casings on the TA, replaced the speaking tubes with telephone communications, replaced the 7.7-mm machine guns two (2x1) 13.2 mm anti-aircraft guns.

[b]January 25, 1936-February 1937[/b] - modernization in Yokosuka at the shipyard of the fleet: some structures of the bridge, ventilation casings and chimneys were dismantled, six canisters for spare torpedoes (only for the medium TA remained), most of the welded longitudinal connections of the set were replaced with riveted ones, the hull was reinforced at the bow, sheets of metal were laid over the welds on its bottom, and about 40 tons of ballast were placed in the holds, 2x2-25-mm anti-aircraft guns were installed, sonar type 93 mod. 1 and hydrophone type 92, two type 88 bombers were replaced by one type 94 (with a stock of 18 depth charges).

Do you think these are trustworthy?

[quote]where these new voice tubes were located[/quote]

Basically in the same location, though it's not really documented at all. I suspect that such tubes were not always rigged, at least until much later in the war. The photo below of the Type II Sagiri shows similar tubes over the TT mounts. But, here, they are not extended forward or aft to the main gun mounts. I couldn't even say whether or not a Fubuki 1942 would have used them.

[quote]removing Tamiya caps as you did in Shirakumo should be enough to get them to their correct size?[/quote]

I think so.

[quote]sed just brass parts like railings or some wires for this?[/quote]

Various companies make mesh brass in various sizes. K & R, Five Star, maybe Rainbow, among others. I will note that Tetra makes a comprehensive set for the Yamashita Hobby Type I Fubuki kit that has most of these type parts. Actually, the YH kit is pretty good, and more accurate than the Tamiya kit. Definitely less aggravation to make it look "right". Just a thought. :smallsmile:

Thanks. So where these new voice tubes were located? Can't see them on the original photos and pictures of your Type 1 models from 1943 and 1944.
For the funnels, removing Tamiya caps as you did in Shirakumo should be enough to get them to their correct size?
I'd love to see closely how you made own grills - they seem pretty delicate and detailed on the old photos. Used just brass parts like railings or some wires for this?

[quote] So in your opinion Carlo Cestra's poster titled "Fubuki 1941" is not accurate? [/quote]

Not accurate, but there's more wrong with that illustration than just the AA and the linoleum. Wrong turret type, funnels too tall after reconstruction, rigid voice tubes removed. Around the start of the war, a more flexible type of voice tube was installed.

See modernized Type Is below

Thanks for the response. So in your opinion Carlo Cestra's poster titled "Fubuki 1941" is not accurate? (Has pair of 13.2 twin guns, no motor boat on the port, wrong linoleum)
Another question: what about that voice tube running from msin superstructure all the way towards the aft superstructure? I see it missing on many later images of types 1 and 2 - did Fubuki have this tube until her end?

Sorry, didn;t see this until now.

1). The WoW layout is more correct, particularly around # 1 turret. The brown decking is linoleum.

2) Most Japanese sources indicate that the Type I s entered the war with a twin 13mm mount in front of funnel #2. Please see the Shinonome photo below. (btw, Shinonome is in drydock to repair collision damage to her torpedo reload girders.) Fubuki's last dockyard visit was in April, 1942 for maintenance, so I think it unlikely that her AA fit changed before being sunk.

3) The davits for the small motor launch aft on the starboard side should be moved forward slightly in the Tamiya kit, so that #2 TT mount can rotate and fire. See the Shirayuki photo below. Side views show the boat to be raised OVER the height of the tubes, so there was clearance.

HTH.