The Ship Model Forum

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:08 am

Hi Peter,

I understand SSBN 610 Thomas A. Edison, an Ethan Allen boat, was the first SSBN being detached to Holy Loch until Sept. 1966. Wasn't she ever docked in Los Alamos? Or was she already returned to the US before the drydock was commisioned? Also Sam Houston (609), John Marshall (611) and Thomas Jefferson (618) had their time at Holy Loch between 1963 and 1966.

by **Peter O** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:18 pm

Yes, I've been building MikroMir subs for years, and their screws are pretty basic. The 3D printed screws from Mulsanne Mike on eBay are far superior!

My other choice would be Ethan Allen, for her (his?) Dominic Frigate Bird launch. However, I'm not sure that she was based at Holy Loch. Globalsecurity.org says "After returning to the Atlantic from Operation Dominic, Ethan Allen commenced her first deterrent patrol in late June 1962 and eventually completed 57 deterrent patrols before conversion to an SSN in September 1980.", but I've been unable to find any corroboration for this statement.

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:20 pm

Peter O wrote:Yes, I'm planning to display a sub in the dock. I'll probably go with a GW class, since the Abraham Lincoln was built at Portsmouth NSY, near where I used to live.

Good choice of course. Mikromir in fact now provides al the subsequent classes as well, I believe, the missing Ethan Allen was added the latest.
When you choose to model it with the propeller (screw I must say, I know) in the open, be aware there are splendid replacements available today, the Mikoromir one is somewhat eeh... lacking.

by **Peter O** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:54 am

Yes, I'm planning to display a sub in the dock. I'll probably go with a GW class, since the Abraham Lincoln was built at Portsmouth NSY, near where I used to live.

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Wed Oct 04, 2023 1:02 am

Vepr157 wrote:Maarten, that's a pretty awesome photo! Where did you come across that?

Jacob

It was in the first reference I mentioned, Jacob!

https://www.aboutsubs.com/los-alamos.htm

To Peter O.: Are you planning to model also a sub in the dock, and which one then? I'm curious!

The Takom kit includes two cranes, whose bases straddle the width of the wall. It may be that the original cranes were simply relocated to the outer edge of the wider top deck. Or if they are larger cranes, that may be a detail I'm willing to overlook

Of course you do as you choose, but to my eye the cranes of Los Alamos are very different from those in the Takom kit! It already starts with their bases...

by **Vepr157** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 10:50 pm

Maarten, that's a pretty awesome photo! Where did you come across that?

Jacob

by **Peter O** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 3:53 pm

Yes, that overhead shot is a gold mine indeed. Other than that one, and a few taken by submariners from inside the dock, all the other photos I've found have been taken from the water.

In the overhead photo, Theodore Roosevelt is centered in the dock, so it must be a relatively early photo. At some point after the Ethan Allens and later classes came online, the dock was refitted with two rows of keel blocks to handle all the different classes, without needing to rearrange the blocks in between subs. Just based on length, I surmise that one set was for the GW class, and the other set handled all the later classes. The differences between the later ones could probably have been handled by stacking different amounts of wooden blocks on top of the steel supports.

The Takom kit includes two cranes, whose bases straddle the width of the wall. It may be that the original cranes were simply relocated to the outer edge of the wider top deck. Or if they are larger cranes, that may be a detail I'm willing to overlook

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 9:43 am

Yes, I understand your considerations very well, I would have the same.

However, that overhead picture from the first reference I called will provide you with a wealth of clues, what to model or wat to neglect. Those two large beam cranes already will be a huge challenge to build, they might even require some specially designed PE.

by **Peter O** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:43 am

Thanks, Maarten! Your analysis is spot-on. I've already figured out the basic layout of the framework, but I was hoping for some plans I could scale to 1/350 and lay the parts on. Even with just the four sections, that's an intimidating amount of Evergreen shapes to precisely cut and keep track of.

It would also be good to get a close-up photo of one section, or just one Y beam configuration, to see what dimensions and sections the various girders had. But like the whole layout, an eyeball guess will be close enough for gov't work.

I've also noticed that the new configuration omits some details that are present in the kit, most notably the AA gun mounted on each wall section. There are also small cabins that overhang the tops of the walls, which had to be removed to widen the deck. I don't plan to go overboard for absolute accuracy and detail; adding the outer framework and wider deck will create the effect of the new dock.

As an aside, I've since discovered that the original ABSD-4 and later had the exterior framework from the beginning. Navsource shows the dock as an ABSD-4 Class dock, and I found a wartime photo of ABSD-4 with the framework.

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Tue Oct 03, 2023 5:00 am

Peter O wrote:...Are there any plans that show the added framework and decks?

Thanks! Peter

Hi Peter,

Interesting idea you have for building this! Unfortunately I don't have any plans that might help. First please note that this Submarine dock was built of only four sections/pontoons, not the entire set of ten of the Takom kit. Reference: https://www.aboutsubs.com/los-alamos.htm

However, I believe the single picture you show already reveals a lot of measurements, that can be related to the dock itself. As you already have the kit, you can easily measure the length and the height of the dock sidewalls (four sections). Now onto analyzing the photo:

Let's see: there are twelve Y-shaped vertical beams, evenly spaced. So the distance between these is 1/12 of the length of the dock wall. Right?
Then there are two horizontal girders, evenly spaced along the height of the dock wall, so the height divided in three. Okay?
Looking at the end field, these horizontal girders seem to run diagonally to the end of the dock wall. I would assume 45degrees. That would mean that the width of the top deck is equal to the distance between the Y-beams. Are you still with me? This will give you already a very close set of measurements of the contraption.

Now it will come to the detailing, but that will be on a lower order of magnitude, as you already have the overall pattern. I see someone els tried to build it in the past, I think that with the help of the Takom kit you can do much better.
https://bob.plord.net/Ships/Period4/Uni ... lamos.html

I hope this helps you forward -- unless someone else turns up with an official plan set!

by **Peter O** » Sat Sep 30, 2023 7:59 am

I posted this on the CASL Dock and Harbor Equipment forum several days ago, but nobody has replied. Perhaps some 41 for Freedom enthusiast can help.

I have the Takom 1/350 kit of the floating drydock ABSD-1. ASBD-7 was rebuilt into AFDB-7 to service Polaris/Poseidon subs at Holy Loch. The kit has plain dock walls with nothing outboard of the walls, but at Holy Loch the dock has an added framework and widened decks on top of the walls. This Navsource photo shows them:

Are there any plans that show the added framework and decks?

Thanks!

Peter

by **Tom Dougherty** » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:23 am

Thanks for that information and clarification. I was unclear when I originally wrote it, but the intent was the same. 6 inch high numbers with the bottoms one foot apart. Since the numbers demarcated feet and are six inches in height (nominally), then corresponding parts (i.e.bottoms) would be one foot apart

As for the �stretching� necessary to compensate for the hull diameter dimension, that was mentioned above by Maarten as well. It would be extreme at the upper part of the hull, as in your photo. In 1/350 scale, personally I am not sure how much I would worry about that. Right now, very few kits come with any draft markings at all, so even a quasi-accurate set with the correct numbers would be welcome. Although I like details, not at the rivet counter stage myself.

Again, I do appreciate your comments and insights!

Tom

by **Navy2000** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:15 am

In response to what someone said about the draft marks. They said that the numbers are 6 inches tall and one foot apart. In fact the numbers shows 6 inches of height and the space from the top of one number to the bottom of the next number shows 6 inches as well. So from the bottom of one number to the bottom of the number above it shows 1 foot. Now you have to take into consideration that the hull is round therefore the numbers actually get taller along with the space in between them. SO the numbers will look stretch out the future you move away from the center of the hull. In the photo below of a Los Angeles class sub you will notice that the lowest number is smaller in height than the number at the top.

Duane

by **Tom Dougherty** » Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:31 am

Thanks, Maarten! No rush, I appreciate that we all have other obligations and work in life. What we discuss here is a hobby.

This issue just has been a topic on my mind for some time. Every time I open a submarine kit, for the most part I see a lot of decals I won't use, and the vital set of draft markings are missing. That and the fact that some submarine kits lack the ballast tank flood grates on the bottom of the hull are my two minor but annoying perennial irritants. No ballast tank flood openings, no submergence. No submergence, no submarine.

If I can help you further with details, please let me know.

Thanks again!!

Tom

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:09 am

Hi Tom,

I will look into it and try to come up with a design. Please have some patience, I won't do that overnight as I have other obligations to attend to!

As for the printing, I used to do that myself on an OKI printer (ALPS is similar), but since I ran out of ribbons and worse: the printer driver could not be updated any further, I have reverted to a commercial printer in the Netherlands, delivering nice white prints at an affordable price.

by **Tom Dougherty** » Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:52 pm

Hi Maarten,
US submarines draft markings are six inches high, and spaced 1 foot apart. There are no other marker lines accompanying them as there are on other nations. The numbers are measured from the keel and yes, the circumference of the hull needs to be taken into account for accurate spacing. Every 10 feet are marked with a full 2 digit number, as is the highest number. Otherwise, the numbers are single numbers of feet between the 2 digit ten foot marks. I have included some photos as examples.

The dry dock photo shows that the numbers are not extended all the way to the keel. In the case of the Sturgeon and Los Angeles classes, the rudder numbers were sometimes only on the leading edge of the rudder; sometimes on the sides. I have seen photos of Virginia class with number on either side of the rudder or on the leading edge as well.

The Ohio class, being much larger in diameter, would indeed require different sets.

by **Maarten Sch�nfeld** » Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:36 am

Tom, you are right, I noticed it too.

For the resin kits of Dutch submarines Zwaardvis and Walrus (Naval Models) for which I made the masters several years ago I took care to create the depth markings as decals, both in white (early) and red (late/current). So it is possible, for sure.
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

For the USN however, these are not usable, as these are calibrated in decimetres (yeah, metric measures!), so for the USN (and also RN) we need other sets calibrated in feet.

One particular problem is, that due to the cylindrical shape of the hull, the scales are not linear on a decal, but need to be adapted for that shape. The good news however is: all USN subs apart from the Ohios have the same hull diameter of 33 feet, which makes one set valid for in fact all these types, with small adaptations for the boomers. For the Ohios a separate set will be necessary.

As for now, I never studied the USN markings in detail, so if you happen to have information on that (dimensions of the markings, typeface, possible abbreviations other than PROJ) it would be greatly helpful to create an accurate set.

by **Tom Dougherty** » Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:25 am

I post this here only because it is a minor but very annoying issue with almost all submarine kits. Almost all kits come with decals that include hull numbers, and sometimes specific submarine names and DSRV docking markings for hatches. The fact is that these markings are all, at least in the case of US submarines (SSNs and SSBNs) removed after sea trials. Numbers and other identifiers are eliminated once accepted by the Navy and during the operational life of the submarine.

What are still visible are draft markings, particularly on rudders and the hull. And almost none of the kits provide these permanent markings in their decal sets. Given a choice, I would much rather have items such as accurate draft markings and abbreviations such as �PROJ� for projections like stern planes, etc. These markings are maintained through the life of the submarine.

Many kits also ignore the sacrificial zincs at the stern, but those I can easily fashion. Accurate decals are another item all together. This would be a great opportunity for aftermarket decal companies and the artwork is very straightforward and applicable to a number of kits. One sheet could cover SSNs and SSBNs.

And no, I don�t feel like making my own. I would need a new printer that prints white numbers and letters.

by **Tom Dougherty** » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:17 pm

The towed arrays were retrofitted onto the first SSBNs during overhaul periods. From what I could find, it was installed well after the early 1970�s.

The towed array was streamed from the starboard stern plane. In this photo from the 1980�s of Henry Clay in drydock, you can see the deploy tube as well as the array conduit along the hull. The array reel was up in the turtleback on the starboard side. A bump out in the turtleback was the only visible sign of the reel.

Here�s the Clay photo: http://navsource.org/archives/08/616/0862514.jpg

Here�s examples of the extension bump and the array conduit on a couple of SSBNs:
You can see the deploy tube near the stern, as well as the reel extension http://navsource.org/archives/08/616/0861800.jpg
The reel storage extension and array conduit can just be made out
http://navsource.org/archives/08/658/0865509.jpg
Good shot of the reel storage extension on the starboard side of the turtleback. Just aft of the missile tubes:
http://navsource.org/archives/08/616/0862207.jpg

by **Vepr157** » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:00 pm

AKeyman657 wrote:was on the Key 657 70,71 gold crew. never saw or heard of towed array on any boomer. we had a floating wire for communications but that's it We hide, not look for anything.

That's because you were on the Key before she got a towed array. I have a Piping TAB from the Key dated October 1980 that shows the BQR-15 towed array (although it was likely installed ca. 1975). And you gotta look out for things to hide from

Jacob

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