The Ship Model Forum

[quote="SG1"]And interesting idea about the cigarette paper - Stefano, do you mean to try printing on it? But that would have to be on two layers, I can´t imagine printing a flag of this size that precisely from both sides of one paper...
[/quote]

Vladi check Stefano Salesi's cigarette paper technique here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37703

or Jim Baumann's way to prevent crackings when using aluminium foil here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7353

Thank you, Martin, Devin and Stefano!

It may be the decal paper is old, I´m not getting younger either :D

Thanks for the hint, I havent´worked with Liquid Decal Film in the past.

And interesting idea about the cigarette paper - Stefano, do you mean to try printing on it? But that would have to be on two layers, I can´t imagine printing a flag of this size that precisely from both sides of one paper...

B E A U T I F U L ! (in every respect)

[quote="Vladi"] :( Any suggestions welcome![/quote]

how about cigarette paper or thermal receipt paper ?

What are you clear coating the decals with before applying them? If it's an acrylic or solvent based clear, that may be what's cracking. I've found that Microscale's Liquid Decal Film has a bit of flex in it and behaves better in such situations: [url=https://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MI-12&Category_Code=FINPROD&Product_Count=6]Liquid Decal Film[/url]

Excellent work, Vladi! She looks great.

I have used the same method for the flags in the past (decal laid down on foil) and haven't run into that problem. Not sure why you are - maybe the decals are old?

Made some good progress on USS Patterson in the meantime :)

[list=a]- gloss coat applied
- weathering using artistic oil paints
- added remaining details: 20mm oerlikons, life rafts, main director, radar antennae, TBS antenna, whaleboat and davits
- added rigging according to photos
- sprayed matt varnish overall
- added sailors across the ship (I still plan to add a few more)[/list]

So the ship is now close to be finished. Here are a few "control" shots that I use to determine what minor touch-ups are to be done (like on one of the antennae running from the funnel to secondary conn).

It can be also noticed that the national flag is missing. I´m using a white decal paper on which you can print on a laser printer. But the flag measures out to approx. 1.7 mm in height in 1/700 and that's almost impossible to print clearly. However, the most difficult turned out to form such a small decal into a "flying" shape. I´m using a piece of aluminium foil as a base to which the decals are applied from both sides, using Mr. Mark Setter to soften them up. I had some 2mm high flags for test, but the decals keep breaking :( Any suggestions welcome!

Rick, thanks for your post and sorry for having overseen it. What you wrote sounds indeed very logical, they were replaced as needed. Thanks!

Vladi,

Each USN ship had a supply of canvas so they could replace worn/destroyed canvas (Bloomers and railing covers being the primary uses during WWII and as awnings in peacetime) and it was expected that they would be painted as required. There are plenty of images of ships with "natural" canvas or painted canvas at some point in time and maybe even a mix of the two on a ship.

Absolutely breathtaking work Vladi!

Keep it up! :thumbs_up_1:

Matt

Thank you Dan, totally agreed.

I confess the reason I chose faded dark dodgers for Patterson (in the given uncertain situation) was to make her appear another bit more different from Bagley that I still plan to complete later ;)

I would think that, sometimes, a worn dodger has to be replaced prior to any dockyard visit, from possible spares. Maybe from a tender. So there could be any number of reasons why it wasn't painted at a particular time.

Thanks for your feedback, Martin. I´ve been thinking along the same lines (in case of USN), but there´s evidence it has not always been the case that the canvas was painted. There are not that many clear photos of Bagley-class members "in action", but there are definitely a few that show light-colored (unpainted) canvas while underway. Just three examples from around the time of the Battle of Savo Island:
[attachment=1]19420807 USS Ralph Talbot off Guadalcanal-Tulagi USMC 61603_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]19420808 USS Bagley or Helm off Tulagi NH 97751_crop_adj.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]19420512 USS Helm (orig id as USS Henley) at Noumea, New Caledonia after the battle of Coral Sea 80-G-266839_cr.jpg[/attachment]
These are actually very helpful in identifying Bagley-class members as they appeared quite similar to each other at that timeframe.

Looking good Vladi. I really like what you did with the foil for the canvas dodgers. Though, I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact the canvas was unpainted in the shipyard. That would probably be the last thing they'd paint, or perhaps the crew would paint them after they left the yard. But I would think they'd most certainly be painted and not left their natural color, as was spelled out in the camouflage orders. Leaving a white/tan canvas unpainted is a lot different than not painting the top of a turret 20B.

Done some work on the Patterson in the meantime but the progress was rather slow. Now comes a longer update to sum it all up.

[b]Painting dilemmas[/b]

What dilemmas can there be at something so straightforward and simple as Ms21? Well… :heh:

An interesting item popped up while I was painting the deck of the Patterson: looking at the numerous photos showing class members from above, it seemed to me they had not painted anything else than their decks with 20-B – turret tops, Mark 4 radars, sloping funnel uptakes and torpedo tubes show no hint of demarcation lines between 5-N and the horizontal (or sloping) surfaces. I discussed it with Rick and Matt and several interesting aspects came out. First of all, 5-N and 20-B were very close in color, the main difference was their purpose. This makes them really difficult to be told from b&w photos. 20-B was intended for the decks so it was designed to better withstand foot traffic. Most importantly, it was up to the crew/CPO/CO to decide how every part of the ship will be painted. Since e.g. the tops of the 5-in mounts saw little foot traffic, it might have been “common” practice to paint the whole mount with 5-N if in Ms 21. So this was my choice in case of Patterson.
[attachment=5]19420508 USS PATTERSON DD-392 from RickEDavis 3.jpg[/attachment]
Another question surfaced when trying to establish the color of the canvas wrapping on railings atop searchlight tower, aft of funnel and also blast bags on mounts 51 and 52. Mare Island photos from May 1942 show them all unpainted on Patterson, in natural color. The photo showing Patterson closing HMAS Canberra to help removing her crew on the morning after the battle is not really conclusive but the searchlight tower canvas appears more like (faded) dark then light. Her sisters during or shortly after the Guadalcanal landing operation show both options were used, sometimes even combining light blast bags with dark railings coverings as seen e.g. on Ralph Talbot on August 7th, 42. The Bagley class comparison table was updated to include these features. I decided to stay with faded dark canvas for Patterson in the end, although I realize this is quite questionable.
[attachment=6]19420809 USS Patterson approaching from astern HMAS Canberra 80-G-13488_cr_adj.jpg[/attachment]
I wished to try a different method to mimic the canvas wrapped around the top of the searchlight tower. Usually one would use diluted PVA glue that fills the voids between railings for this purpose, that´s easy and quick. However I noticed that Patterson´s canvas was stretched quote taut. So I used thin aluminium foil which I painted with the relevant 20-B paint and then attached to the railings using PVA glue. I had much more control about how much I wanted to depict the sag of the cloth by pushing (or not) the foil against the railings. BTW the production version of the PE sheet will include two versions of these railings, one „open“ and the other one „covered“ with canvas.

The following photos show the status quo of the Patterson, still without her main director, radars, torpedo tubes, boat and davits, life rafts, oerlikons etc. Decals have been applied already (therefore the "darker" areas of gloss coat around hull numbers) incl. rubber pads and non-skid walkways on the deck (last pic). The deck was slightly weathered as it is becoming less accessible after some parts are installed, but the ship is waiting for her overall gloss coat and weathering of most of the model.
[attachment=4]20230516_EOS_4995_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=3]20230516_EOS_4996_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]20230516_EOS_4997_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]20230516_EOS_4998_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]20230516_EOS_4999_cr.jpg[/attachment]

My first ever attempt at paint modulation. Worked out as expected on the Wilson (in the background) in combination with 5-O but unnoticeable on the Patterson in 5-N.

Ok :thumbs_up_1:

Maybe just a very light grey. Even a glossy varnish is going to weather quickly. Any glinting is unlikely.

Hi Martin, thanks for the point. Yes, I asked Rick some time ago, too, and got a very similar answer. So, in fact, we don´t really know exactly how the anetennae looked like in 1942, just that they mostly appear quite light on photos. I think that they would not appear as "pure" silver, no metal would look like that if exposed to elements on sea, plus the scale effect. Thus I am thinking about grey tinted with a bit of silver.

[quote="Vladi"]Radar antennae and TBS are ready but not attached to the model as these will be sprayed silverish grey.[/quote]
Interesting. I choose to paint the SC radar on my [url=http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dd/dd-459/Laffey-350-mq/index.htm][b][u]1/350 Laffey[/u][/b][/url] silver, and I got dinged at the 2021 IPMS Nationals for that (bumped me from a 2nd to a 3rd). When I asked Rick Davis what the protocol for painting of radar screens was, he said this:
[quote="Rick Davis"]The answer is, the USN used varnish not paint on the antenna reflector and supports to retard corrosion because lead based paint messed with the electrical properties of the FD (Mk 4) RADIO DETECTION and RANGING set. When it was noticed, particularly in the South Pacific, and complaints forwarded to BuShips (Bureau of Ships) that bright sunlight really reflected and showed off the antennas (hence the location of the ship), they came up with a stained varnish. I came across this issue in correspondence in my FLETCHER class research. It was kind of an aside that I thought was interesting, but I didn’t bother to scan the letters because who would care. Little did I know the question arises about once a year or so. I couldn’t find it again if I tried. And NO I don’t know what the varnish color was. My guess is from appearances, it was close to 5-O … halfway between 5-H and 5-N to satisfy both Ms 22 and Ms 21 CAMOUFLAGE schemes. But, I have no idea if multiple varnish colors were developed and used.[/quote]
When I asked Rick if he knew WHEN the varnish started being used, he said:
[quote="Rick Davis"]The short answer is no. It was adopted on the production line in I believe early 1943 at some point during the Spring. The newer BENSON-GLEAVES-FLETCHER’s and adding of radar to most all older destroyers didn’t show-up until roughly the Solomons campaign, so wasn’t a big issue until then. And from photos, revarnishing wasn’t something that was apparently done on ALL or any operational units. It could be that forward bases and tenders did it. But, I suspect unless the antenna needed to be replaced, it didn’t happen until a regular overhaul or major repairs were done stateside.[/quote]
Not that you are going to run afoul of an IPMS USA judge anytime soon, but I know you are interested in accuracy, hence my post.

Yeah, very interesting what information surfaces even after over 80 years, right? :heh:

Completed testing the PE fit of Patterson today: all the torpedo handling equipment as well as life raft racks, ladders (except access to the navigating bridge, as it is still dry fit for easier painting), hose reels etc. are in place. Also all the tiny specks on the mainmast. Radar antennae and TBS are ready but not attached to the model as these will be sprayed silverish grey.

She lacks her two Lewis machine guns atop the searchlight tower as of yet, we noticed them too late for the prototype PE. They will be part of the final PE sheet along with some adjusted and other newly added parts, e.g. rudder for the whale boat.
[attachment=5]20230331_EOS_4468_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=3]20230331_EOS_4467_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=4]20230330_EOS_4443_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]20230331_EOS_4471_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]20230330_EOS_4456_cr.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]20230331_EOS_4470_cr.jpg[/attachment]
Now I need to prepare the updated PE for production and create some instructions.