The Ship Model Forum

I finally finished her! I'm ordering some test prints of some of the parts to make sure it's all good, but my plan is to do a 1916 Arizona and 1945 Pennsylvania. I'll build them all at the same time at that point, so this will probably be the last post in this thread for a long time before I start the actual physical model.

I also did a CAD model of the Kingfisher aircraft.

[quote="DavidP"]your stack is too cylindrical as should be more oval shape especially the base which is longer then the top. look at this inboard profile http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/BOGP/RG19_ALPHA_Arizona_BB39_07.jpg & this superstructure deck http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/BOGP/RG19AlphaArizona162285-3_a.jpg[/quote]

Thank you! Took me all night as the loft function wasn't cooperating, but I think I got it corrected.

Slowly trudging along...

Update on my progress. Tomorrow night I'll start work on the forward mast/superstructure. Then it'll just be ships boats and a couple little features that attach to the superstructure. I'll probably create the aircraft as a separate file to keep the size of this down and allow the choice for type of aircraft.

[quote="drasticplastic"]I would be interested in a collection of ships in this scale, but not produced by Shapeways - their quality is just too unpredictable for reasons stated above, especially in a tiny scale. Any printing artifacts could completely destroy any fine detail. Model Monkey's grey resin looks extremely fine - almost injected plastic quality!
:wave_1:[/quote]

I totally appreciate where you're coming from. The main problem is I'm not in a position to purchase my own printer; unless another site is willing to offer and produce my models in this different material the best I can do is shapeways for anyone besides myself that wants prints of these. I'd absolutely be open to something like that though.

I would be interested in a collection of ships in this scale, but not produced by Shapeways - their quality is just too unpredictable for reasons stated above, especially in a tiny scale. Any printing artifacts could completely destroy any fine detail. Model Monkey's grey resin looks extremely fine - almost injected plastic quality!
:wave_1:

[quote="ModelMonkey"][quote="harristotle"]Steve, I'd love to have info on those who are willing to print in this material...[/quote]
Try Kirk Kirkland at Collapse Industries in Florida. https://www.collapseindustries.com/

Kirk has Form 2s, and even better.

[quote="harristotle"]...I'm not opposed to using it, but the limited research I've done on those offering print services in this material can't meet the constraints I'm designing to in 1/1200. The 1.0mm, .8mm, and .6mm wires I'm limited to in shapeways as well as the .6mm unsupported walls and .1mm raised detail already makes it difficult to present a good model that's true to scale.

If this different material can print at that resolution, I'd love to check it out....[/quote]
Oh yes, 0.1mm is no problem. The exterior cabling on this 1/700 scale USS [i]Yorktown[/i] island is 0.05mm thick, half the 0.1mm you're looking for.
[attachment=0]Model Monkey 1-700 Yorktown CV-5 Island 1942 e.jpg[/attachment]
[quote="harristotle"]...I think my biggest question besides who offers this service at the resolution I need is, do I have to design the supports in when I create the model or are they generated automatically as part of the print process?[/quote]
Both actually. The printer's software generates the sprues. But you may want to move some around or remove some altogether in order to protect detail, etc., which the software lets you do. You can also set the size of the contact points or mix sizes. 0.6mm is default but 0.4 works fine. The software, called "PreForm", is free from Formlabs for use with their printers. You can download and install it, then see how it does for your models. https://formlabs.com/software/preform/

If you like it, you can then send Kirk the *.form file you've created for him and his folks to print for you.

I have no association with Kirk, other than as a previous customer and admirer of his capabilities.[/quote]

You're a gentleman and a scholar! I'll check it out when I finish this build. Thank you!

[quote="harristotle"]Steve, I'd love to have info on those who are willing to print in this material...[/quote]
Try Kirk Kirkland at Collapse Industries in Florida. https://www.collapseindustries.com/

Kirk has Form 2s, and even better.

[quote="harristotle"]...I'm not opposed to using it, but the limited research I've done on those offering print services in this material can't meet the constraints I'm designing to in 1/1200. The 1.0mm, .8mm, and .6mm wires I'm limited to in shapeways as well as the .6mm unsupported walls and .1mm raised detail already makes it difficult to present a good model that's true to scale.

If this different material can print at that resolution, I'd love to check it out....[/quote]
Oh yes, 0.1mm is no problem. The exterior cabling on this 1/700 scale USS [i]Yorktown[/i] island is 0.05mm thick, half the 0.1mm you're looking for.
[attachment=0]Model Monkey 1-700 Yorktown CV-5 Island 1942 e.jpg[/attachment]
[quote="harristotle"]...I think my biggest question besides who offers this service at the resolution I need is, do I have to design the supports in when I create the model or are they generated automatically as part of the print process?[/quote]
Both actually. The printer's software generates the sprues. But you may want to move some around or remove some altogether in order to protect detail, etc., which the software lets you do. You can also set the size of the contact points or mix sizes. 0.6mm is default but 0.4 works fine. The software, called "PreForm", is free from Formlabs for use with their printers. You can download and install it, then see how it does for your models. https://formlabs.com/software/preform/

If you like it, you can then send Kirk the *.form file you've created for him and his folks to print for you.

I have no association with Kirk, other than as a previous customer and admirer of his capabilities.

Update on my progress so far...

[quote="ModelMonkey"]Certainly, Shapeways offers many attractive advantages. Shapeways' "smooth fine detail plastic" is a good material for many modeling purposes.

Having said that, gray resin is an alternative worth considering. Please be aware that there are different kinds of printers that use gray resin as a printing medium and all gray resin printers are not created equal. Some are excellent, professional-grade machines. Others are novelties.

In my opinion, there do exist gray resin printers that produce models that are far better than those printed by Shapeways and they are accessible to modelers.

The gray resin printer I use, a Formlabs Form 2, is based on a different technology and printing method than that used by Shapeways. I chose to purchase one and print my own designs in response to customer complaints about the smoothness of Shapeways' products using their tech. The Form 2 is a professional-grade machine best known for its use by dental professionals to create extremely accurate molds for dental work. It is not a hobby or high school printer extruding nylon.

For modelers, in many respects, the Form 2 produces superior models than the tech used by Shapeways. The Form 2 achieves greater detail and exceptionally smooth surfaces right out of the printer. There is no need for any surface smoothing using an air eraser or other baking soda blasting (effective but messy work). Gray resin also accepts more kinds of hobby paints, including enamels, without the need for post-curing by the modeler. The Form 2 is an expensive machine and so is the resin. But there are Form 2 owners and printing companies that are happy to print designs created by others for a reasonable, affordable fee. I don't offer this service but can point you to some who do. Their pricing is comparable to Shapeways.

Shapeways' "smooth fine detail plastic" printers use wax to support overhanging features during printing. Wax contact with the resin during printing causes surface roughness. Instead of wax, the Form 2 uses physical sprues to support overhanging features during printing. The sprues must be cut away by the modeler. Some modelers find the sprues objectionable and prefer Shapeways' waxy tech.

Here are some examples of gray resin models as they appear right out of the Form 2 printer in scales from 1/700 to 1/24. None of these models has been cleaned up or altered in any way. This is exactly what the printer creates and exactly what the customer receives.[/quote]

Steve, I'd love to have info on those who are willing to print in this material. I'm not opposed to using it, but the limited research I've done on those offering print services in this material can't meet the constraints I'm designing to in 1/1200. The 1.0mm, .8mm, and .6mm wires I'm limited to in shapeways as well as the .6mm unsupported walls and .1mm raised detail already makes it difficult to present a good model that's true to scale.

If this different material can print at that resolution, I'd love to check it out. I think my biggest question besides who offers this service at the resolution I need is, do I have to design the supports in when I create the model or are they generated automatically as part of the print process?

[quote="DavidP"]Michael, Model Monkey aka Steve Larsen who is also a moderator on this site might say differently about the grey resin.
https://www.model-monkey.com/[/quote]

David, I'm familiar with Steve and his impressive work. I've been a customer of his and communicated through shapeways. I'm not opposed to the grey resin, just saying that my limited research shows it can't meet the resolution that I'm designing to.

I've bought many figures from Shapeway's (I'm a real sucker who never learns, and who hopes Shapeways gets better) in various scales, and am always disappointed. There are always figures with so much texture destroying detail (from the wax printing method) that they are completely useless, despite the attractive CAD representations. There is a company in Belgium, or France, called Reedoak that produces mostly figures, using the other method, with lots of support sprues, but smooth surface with no texture that destroys detail. As a modeller, I would much rather deal with cutting off the support sprues with minor clean up, than have a totally useless piece covered with texture!
:wave_1:

Certainly, Shapeways offers many attractive advantages. Shapeways' "smooth fine detail plastic" is a good material for many modeling purposes.

Having said that, gray resin is an alternative worth considering. Please be aware that there are different kinds of printers that use gray resin as a printing medium and all gray resin printers are not created equal. Some are excellent, professional-grade machines. Others are novelties.

In my opinion, there do exist gray resin printers that produce models that are far better than those printed by Shapeways and they are accessible to modelers.

The gray resin printer I use, a Formlabs Form 2, is based on a different technology and printing method than that used by Shapeways. I chose to purchase one and print my own designs in response to customer complaints about the smoothness of Shapeways' products using their tech. The Form 2 is a professional-grade machine best known for its use by dental professionals to create extremely accurate molds for dental work. It is not a hobby or high school printer extruding nylon.

For modelers, in many respects, the Form 2 produces superior models than the tech used by Shapeways. The Form 2 achieves greater detail and exceptionally smooth surfaces right out of the printer. There is no need for any surface smoothing using an air eraser or other baking soda blasting (effective but messy work). Gray resin also accepts more kinds of hobby paints, including enamels, without the need for post-curing by the modeler. The Form 2 is an expensive machine and so is the resin. But there are Form 2 owners and printing companies that are happy to print designs created by others for a reasonable, affordable fee. I don't offer this service but can point you to some who do. Their pricing is comparable to Shapeways.

Shapeways' "smooth fine detail plastic" printers use wax to support overhanging features during printing. Wax contact with the resin during printing causes surface roughness. Instead of wax, the Form 2 uses physical sprues to support overhanging features during printing. The sprues must be cut away by the modeler. Some modelers find the sprues objectionable and prefer Shapeways' waxy tech.

Here are some examples of gray resin models as they appear right out of the Form 2 printer in scales from 1/700 to 1/24. None of these models has been cleaned up or altered in any way. This is exactly what the printer creates and exactly what the customer receives.

[quote="drasticplastic"]Will you be printing from Shapeways, or do you have a better printer? Shapeways always leaves obvious and objectionable printing artifacts in visible areas. :mad_1: In such a small scale they would be very distracting!
:wave_1:[/quote]

These will be printed through shapeways. I can't justify the cost of my own printer, and from what I've read about the grey acrylic, it can't get the resolution that shapeways fine detail gets. I have many features that get as fine as .1mm. I just received my first test print of the Arizona hull today and am very happy with the results. I typically just wash them with a toothbrush in dish soap, then use sanding sticks to knock down the bad areas. I've also read about using a fine soda blaster, which is on my short list of items to buy.

Will you be printing from Shapeways, or do you have a better printer? Shapeways always leaves obvious and objectionable printing artifacts in visible areas. :mad_1: In such a small scale they would be very distracting!
:wave_1:

The rear deck vents are done as well as the bow dorade box. I've completed most of the work on the crane, though I'm going to go back and add more detail. This part is tricky as I've had to exaggerate a number of features to even allow it to print, and even as it is it may still not be printable. I know for my own build I intend to replace at least part of the crane with PE.

[quote="DavidP"]what are those things somewhat sticking out the rear sides of the turret as don't look like rangefinder to me?
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0541.htm[/quote]

I honestly don't know what they are, just that they aren't range finders. The rangefinders are mounted above those features. The only thing I've found referencing them so far was actually a Pensylvania build thread on here; one of the differences between AZ and PA is the PA has those same features, but doesn't have the 4 access panels on them that the AZ does.

I reworked the model tonight and made that part much more accurate to the original. I'm calling these done for now, and on to the next piece...

[quote="LeeF"]Wow this is very cool! Thanks for sharing your work. What ships and navies are you planning on representing?

Later,

Lee[/quote]

Thank you for the kind words! Below is a paste from a spreadsheet I keep (doesn't paste well, but IM me if you want to see a better list), tracking which ships I plan to build and what order I plan to develop them. I've also got a list of aircraft planned to incorporate into future dioramas or CV builds. I had planned to build Mikasa and Yamato in the near future, but building AZ has drug me into the US BB's and I really want to build my way up to Montana. The work will be slow though. I've got a full time job, I'm a reservist, my wife has the same commitments, and we have two little ones. My work is done in 1-2 hour increments at night. It takes me 3-4 months per ship from the beginning of CAD work to placing a plaque on the finished physical model. It's a labor of love though. Beautiful machines that tell the story of incredible people who fought wars and adversity, I just try to learn and share their story for every build I do.

Ship Class Ship Name
Bismarck Tirpitz
H-Series Unnamed
Type VII U Boat
Scharnhorst Scharnhorst
Deutschland Graf Spee
Pennsylvania Arizona
Dreadnought Dreadnought
Mikasa Mikasa
Yamato Yamato
Scharnhorst Scharnhorst
Scharnhorst Gneisenau
Derfflinger Lutzow
Nagato Nagato
A150 Super Yamato
Vittorio-Veneto Roma
Queen Elizabeth Warspite
King George V King George V
Nelson Rodney
Lion Lion
Colorado Colorado
Texas Texas
Iowa Iowa
South Carolina South Carolina
Iowa Wisonsin
North Carolina Washington
South Dakota South Dakota
Montana Ohio
New York Texas
Wyoming Arkansas
Type 9 U Boat
Type 9 variation U Boat
U-19 U Boat
Gato Finback
Freedom
Independence
Oliver Hazard Perry
Ticonderoga
Zumwalt
Arleigh Burke
Takao
Atlanta Juneau
Admiral Hipper
Algerie
Yorktown Enterprise
Graf Zeppelin
Pensacola
Farragut Worden
John C. Butler Samuel B. Roberts
New Orleans San Francisco


Manufacturer Name
Grumman Avenger
Consolidated Catalina
Vought Corsair
Vought Kingfisher
Douglas Dauntless
Douglas Devastator
Grumman Wildcat
Grumman Hellcat
Martin Mariner
Consolidated Coronado
Arado 196
Heinkel
Mitsubishi Zero
Nakajima E8N

Wow this is very cool! Thanks for sharing your work. What ships and navies are you planning on representing?

Later,

Lee

The rear mast is done and I'm partway through the detailing of the main guns. It took me a bit to get the geometry of the turret correct. I love the Pennsylvania classes 14" turrets, but man these were a fun challenge to figure out how to capture.

I don't have a picture, but after hitting print on the first hull I identified some shape issues that I had to go back and refine further with the CAD model.