The Ship Model Forum

I finally bought the Seaforth Publishing edition of Friedman's book a couple of months ago. It is indeed ISBN 1844157016.

What eventually persuaded me to buy it was the price: just £10 from an Amazon UK marketplace seller. Perhaps the listing errors discussed above have resulted in a large number of copies of Seaforth's edition remaining unsold. :big_grin:

FWIW, there's a pair of reversed photo captions on pages 178 and 179.

[quote="Werner"][color=#BF0000]Then we must conclude that when Pen & Sword announced the book to the index service they gave the wrong ISBN, and until the index is corrected there will be some disappointed purchasers.[/color][/quote]

Yes, that sounds about right. I think the confusion started when Chatham Publishing - the original intended publisher of Friedman's book - was bought by Pen and Sword Books some 6 months ago.

[quote="linux"][quote="Werner"]Pen & Sword http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1544 give ISBN of 9781844157013 for Friedman and 9781844157174 for Winfield. I bet they got them reversed, either when publishing or listing them.

Especially since ALL the indexing services (even in the UK) return Winfield for the number you have given for Friedman.[/quote]

Ah, but I [b]do[/b] have Winfield's book "British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792". And its ISBN is 9781844157006, exactly as listed on the publisher's website:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1535[/quote]
[color=#BF0000]Then we must conclude that when Pen & Sword announced the book to the index service they gave the wrong ISBN, and until the index is corrected there will be some disappointed purchasers.[/color]

[quote="Werner"]Pen & Sword http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1544 give ISBN of 9781844157013 for Friedman and 9781844157174 for Winfield. I bet they got them reversed, either when publishing or listing them.

Especially since ALL the indexing services (even in the UK) return Winfield for the number you have given for Friedman.[/quote]

Ah, but I [b]do[/b] have Winfield's book "British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792". And its ISBN is 9781844157006, exactly as listed on the publisher's website:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1535

Pen & Sword http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1544 give ISBN of 9781844157013 for Friedman and 9781844157174 for Winfield. I bet they got them reversed, either when publishing or listing them.

Especially since ALL the indexing services (even in the UK) return Winfield for the number you have given for Friedman.

There are two places to have the error. On the book cover or in the ISBN index, if the manufacturer transposed the numbers.

[quote="Werner"]The number I referred to in my edit, 978-1-84415-701-3, is a correctly formatted ISBN, including check digit. As it is a guaranteed unique number within the group, a search at multiple listing services such as [url=http://books.google.com/books?q=isbn%3A9781844157013&btnG=Search+Books]Google Book Search[/url] returns [i]
British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792[/i]. Despite checking a half dozen sources, I have been unable to get any of them to return any thing else with this INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BOOK NUMBER; certainly not Friedman's [i]Naval Firepower[/i].

Therefore, I must conclude your data and insistence is in error.[/quote]

Did you check the publisher's website? Seaforth Publishing are an imprint of Pen and Sword Books:

http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1544

Admittedly I do not have the Seaforth Publishing edition yet, but starshell - who does - has confirmed that 9781844157013 is correct.

So both you and starshell are correct, even though you disagree!

n.b., it appears the seller "Pen and Sword Books" has made a typographical error on their website, as close examination of this page reveals: http://www.eruditor.com/books/item/9781844157013.html.en

[quote]Winfield Rif:
Naval Firepower
Battleship Guns And Gunnery In The Dreadnought Era

Pen & Sword Books Ltd (United Kingdom), 2008
Hardback, 256 pages
Size: 289x245 mm
ISBN: 9781844157013
ISBN-10: 1844157016
Our price: £28.00
List price: £40.00
You save: 30%

In stock: Usually ships within 24 hours.
Will be shipped from: United Kingdom
Add to Shopping Basket
In a hurry? Try our express service (UK Mainland customers only).
Naval Firepower

[color=#BF0000]Full title: British Warships in the Age od Sali 1714 - 1792.
[/quote]
[/color]
The author is Friedman, as well.

It is entirely possible that Pen & Sword have yet another ISBN for Naval Firepower by Friedman, but this is not it.

[quote="linux"][quote][quote="starshell"]I have the book direct from the publishers and the ISBN is NOT 978-1-84415-701-3[/quote]
[color=#BF0000]N/B. The ISBN is in fact: ISBN-10 1591145554 - ISBN-13 9781591145554[/color][/quote]

Mr. Moderator, your red text refers to the Naval Institute Press (US) edition of the book. starshell was referring to the Seaforth Publishing (UK) edition of the book, and his original post was 100% correct. Please check your facts carefully before modifying other people's posts![/quote]
Mr. Linux, when I placed my note, I read the ISBN off the back cover of the book, which is in my hands.
[list]
[*]for a 13 digit ISBN, a GS1 prefix: 978 or 979
[*] the group identifier, (group of countries sharing a language)
[*] the publisher code,
[*] the item number, and
[*] a checksum character or check digit.[/list]

The number I referred to in my edit, 978-1-84415-701-3, is a correctly formatted ISBN, including check digit. As it is a guaranteed unique number within the group, a search at multiple listing services such as [url=http://books.google.com/books?q=isbn%3A9781844157013&btnG=Search+Books]Google Book Search[/url] returns [i]British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792[/i]. Try it yourself. Despite checking a half dozen sources, I have been unable to get any of them to return any thing else with this INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BOOK NUMBER; certainly not Friedman's [i]Naval Firepower[/i].

Therefore, I must conclude your data and insistence is in error.

http://worldcat.org/oclc/181928479&referer=one_hit
http://www.ibookdb.net/isbn/9781844157013
http://a9.com/9781844157013?a=ob
http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=9781844157013&output=html (search in the UK)

[quote][quote="starshell"]I have the book direct from the publishers and the ISBN is NOT 978-1-84415-701-3[/quote]
[color=#BF0000]N/B. The ISBN is in fact: ISBN-10 1591145554 - ISBN-13 9781591145554[/color][/quote]

Mr. Moderator, your red text refers to the Naval Institute Press (US) edition of the book. starshell was referring to the Seaforth Publishing (UK) edition of the book, and his original post was 100% correct. Please check your facts carefully before modifying other people's posts!

For those asking questions on the content it is predomiantly aimed (pun :big_grin: ) at discussing fire-control (directors, range finders, early computer systems etc.) on battleships and large cruisers. There are snippets of information about fire-control on destroyers in the volume, but not much overall. The volume is heavily illustrated with at least one and sometimes three to four B&W photos on each double page spread. The first seven chapters cover the British Navy in detail.

The contents are as follows:

Note on units of measurement
Note on abbreviations
Author's acknowledgements

Introduction
1 The Gunnery Problem
2 Range-keeping
3 Shooting and Hitting
4 Tactics 1904-14
5 The Surprises of War 1914-18
6 Between the Wars
7 The Second World War
8 The German Navy
9 The US Navy
10 The US Navy at War
11 The Imperial Japanese Navy
12 The French Navy
13 The Italian Navy
14 The Russian and Soviet Navies
Appendix: Propellants, Guns, Shells and Armour
Notes
Glossary
Bibliography
Index

[quote="Werner"][quote="starshell"][quote="linux"]Does anybody have this book yet? If so could you please verify its ISBN.

Amazon UK have now deleted ISBN 1844157156, and they have renamed ISBN 1844157016 (978-1844157013) to "British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714-1792". However that title was in fact published as ISBN 1844157008 (978-1844157006).[/quote]

Hi Linux

I have the book direct from the publishers and the ISBN is 978-1-84415-701-3 [color=#BF0000] Moderator's note: this is the ISBN for [i]British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792[/i][/color]
[/quote][/quote]

I am looking at the ISBN in the book now - it is definately correct and exactly as I gave it above in my post to Linux. If Seaforth Publishing have exactly the same ISBN for Naval Firepower as the one already allocated for British Warships in the Age of Sail: 1714-1792 perhaps you should let Seaforth Publishing know!

I would very much like to hear Nathan Okun's review of the Japanese section of Friedman's new book.

Okun gave me the impression the wartime Japanese system was close in performance to the US system immediately pre-war. However, I take from Friedman the Japanese system was barely evolved from Percy Scott's WW.I table with the addition of one device which allowed an optical spotter to estimate enemy ship's motion, and transmit that change directly to the turrets, bypassing the central computer.

An additional step for [i]Yamato[/i] and [i]Mogami[/i] was an optical cross-level system with it's own pen on the board. This last system also replaced a "follow the pointer" mechanism in the turret with an automatic system as in most other navies. Friedman also indicated Japanese gyroscopes were not nearly as effective as those of other nations. He has the benefit of drawings by Japanese and US post-war engineering assessments as well as photographs.

Friedman's overall assessment is that the Japanese expected the main battle to occur in the morning after a night battle which had injured and disorganized the US or British line. They appear to have calibrated this battle for the range outside 30Km where [i]Nagato[/i] could hit, but [i]Colorado[/i] could not reply. Unfortunately with multi-minute flight times and very weak plotting and computing, their only chance to score is if the enemy politely steams on course and does not maneuver or evade.

Friedman concludes that the system was simply overwhelmed with input during actual combat and failed. Also, it was nearly impossible to shift directors in combat, leaving the secondary director useless during battle.

I would like to make a correction. As I only get a few minutes to read this book at bedtime, I erred in indicating that in covered only battleship and cruiser systems. I am now getting into an area where the British have modified the AFCC computer into the AFCT for destroyer-sized ships, demand arising after RN contact with the Ford Mk.2 ("Baby Ford") calculator when USN ships actively joined in WW.I.

What a bunch of morons. It's on the cover illustration on the Amazon web page.
[quote="Amazon.Com"]
Greetings from Amazon.com,

Thank you for using the Catalog Update Form.
For ASIN: 1591145554, Title: Naval Firepower: Battleship Guns and Gunnery in the Dreadnaught Era, we have received your updates to the attributes listed below. Beneath each attribute we include the action we have taken.


Attribute: Title

Current value:
Naval Firepower: Battleship Guns and Gunnery in the Dreadnaught Era


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Data accuracy is highly important to us. We appreciate the time you have taken to submit your updates to us.

Best regards,


Catalog Department
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[/quote]

It seems confined to primary armament and surface fire for battleships and some cruisers, especially where there is commonality.

[quote="Werner"]It's scope seems to end with VJ-Day. I don't even see references to the 1945 emergency changes.

Of course, I'm nowhere near done. It is arranged by country, and I'm still on Britain.[/quote]

Thanks Werner, that was a big help right there! Arranged by country sounds good and the best way to do such a subject. I'm wondering though if it is all Battleships all the time or do fire control systems used for secondary armaments and the Crusiers and Destroyers also get covered? HA fire as well??
I've decided that I'll order a copy myself, I'm just curious like a kid at christmas to know what's in the package :cool_2:

Bob B.

It's scope seems to end with VJ-Day. I don't even see references to the 1945 emergency changes.

Of course, I'm nowhere near done. It is arranged by country, and I'm still on Britain.

Werner-

What are the latest weapons the book covers? "Dreadnaught Era" is a bit subjective.

I realize some of you just want a review. Several are available, one each at Barnes & Noble, and Amazon. I will continue to offer occasional comments on the book.

For instance, he rushes to the defense of Admiral Holland and [i]Hood[/i] with a non-conventional theory regarding the tactics that day. I will be coy, since I don't want to spoil the plot for those of you who wonder if 'the butler did it.'