The Ship Model Forum

I always feel safer in something over engineered. The Midways lasted longer than others of the era, were more adaptable, could withstand more increases in displacement. The British Audacious class were the same. And after all the DC3/C47 is still around after being in production in the 30's :) Better than all the smart people and their 10% safety margins, 1 to 3mm of aluminium protecting you from solar radiation in todays planes at 30,000 ft. Fly too often and your sterile ha ha

No doubt todays Steels with their manganese, carbon and many other constituants allow larger ships under less weights but I don't think a Nimitz size carrier would have been impossible to build in the 40s if the drive was there

The Essex class was the biggest that the USA could build at the time. During ww2 steel was to rigid for a ship that big. Steel needed a little more give. The Midway class was built to be very strong and rigid because they didn't have sufficient data on how a ship that size would handle being at sea. Much more steel than was needed. Remember you didn't have big mainframe computers running simulations until the late 1950s early 1960s, you had to overcompensate past your 10% reserve.

B-25 PBJ-1H aboard USS Shangri-la (CV-38)

[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/6181409714/[/url]

Serious consideration of a navalised B25 It had a tailhook and a steerable nose wheel to enable easier handling round a deck. A squadron of these aboard the Nimitz would be devastating I think

Mmmmmmm how about The Final Countdown story? What If the carrier hadn't returned? But instead was available for conversion and backward engineering possibilities? The missile armament couldn't be sustained straight away so maybe fit twin 5" turrets, populate the galleries with 40mm tubs and 20mms. Radars replaced with the latest equipement, maybe CXAM sets. The propulsion would definately be sustainable for the duration of the war. But would they risk the loss of all this tech in one bad battle? Depends how desperate they were. Would make a great model though, I will definately be building one of these from a trumpeter kit I have, flightdeck populated with B25s (I saw pictures of one tested, I think on Shangri La. It had a steerable front wheel) B26s Marauders or Invaders, C47 COD, P38 long range fighters. Could it have launched one way B29s aka Doolittle Raid :)

When on about massive airgroups I add the caution that apparently the Midways 40's airwing was deemed too large and unwieldly for one platform and was only remedied beecause the size of aircraft were increasing at an alarming (and unsustainable for the UK navy) rate

I think it's about time I show off my alternate [i]Yorktown[/i] class designs:[attachment=1]014.JPG[/attachment]
The USS Enterprise class APA(L) [attachment=0]058.JPG[/attachment]
The USS Hornet LSD(L) Thoughts anyone?

Just to add to my fire... Back to the Auxilary fleet. It seems that the older generation of ships haas finally aged to the end of their careers by 1944, so vessels such as the 4 pipers and Omahas would be scrapped fight? WRONG!!!!! In my world anyway. The aft section would have all non-gun related equipment torn off and 3,5 and 6 inch guns placed wherever their is room (Omahas) This would make it the good All-purpose ship I could be, reducing the need for modern, specialized vessels to escort the slow convoys. Same for the 4 pipers, except not the 6 inch guns.

But there are others that are still just not needed anymore, like the Saratoga. This beast would have all but six 5 inch guns, 5 40mm Bofors quads/twins, and thirty 20mm Oerlikons removed. Those guns would be for training. I would have the Sara brought into the Great Lakes, and add to the training carriers [i]Wolverine[/i] and [i]Sable[/i]. This would add onto the training capacity, which can fill up the new carriers.

[i]Wasp[/i] and [i]Ranger[/i], time for the official layout. They would have all repair, aircrew, and aviation fuel facilities removed, making way for maybe 10 more aircraft apiece. These carriers, being that they became ferries a long time ago, would also have very few armament, comprising of up to 30 20mm guns on the Wasp, and 20 on the Ranger, as well as a 3 inch gun both fore and aft on each vessel. These would travel with convoys, so there is really no need to have such an overly updated weapons fit.Oh, one more major piece: the island would just be ripped off. No need for the command center or all of those exravagent radar suites right?

Please, anyone, chime in. I want this thread to tread water, but not just based on my ideas. Anyone have something they want to share or questions about?

Well, I just came up with an idea...again. This involves more of the other vessels in the fleet, like the Battleships and Cruisers and their secondary armaments... With bigger carriers on the move, the Escorts need to keep up and have more of a bang for their buck right? Starting in the early 30s, the (my fantasy) Navy will begin development of the automatic 6 inch guns, Like on the Worchesters. My idea is that ships Cruisers and Battleships post- 1939 be armed with these jaw droppers. Atlantas would recieve 5 mounts - 3 fore, 2 aft, Clevelands - 2 port/starboard, 2 fore/aft, Baltimores - same as Clevelands, Post-Dreadnaut BBs recieve 3 port/starboard in a Nelson style arrangement. Other than the Clevelands/Baltimores - which have a lot of free room where the 5 inch mounts are, the Atlantas have most of their guns on the centerline, just above each other. This is because in the Worchesters, there was little room due to the massive storerooms needed to house enough ammo for the huge automatic 6 inch guns. Same goes for the BBs.
For the Destroyers, it would be mix of armaments. On vessels from the Sims to Benson classes: 2 Single 6 inch autos would always be on the main deck both fore and aft. Above each of them, a half shield 5 inch gunhouse. For the Fletchers, the same deal, except where No. 3 mount and where the torpedoes were, a line of three 3 inch gunmounts. These would be the close in weapons for surface targets and frag AA munitions. I've always wondered why they were kept on the 3 oldest BBs, but not anywhere else, other than a handful of Subs. They are halfway between 40mm and 5 inch guns, having an exceptionally fast firing rate, and the ability to shred any aircraft in the sky. I would have 3 of these replace every two torpedo mounts. A powerful, neglected weapon.

Here is my Battleplan: My guess is that the carriers would be split evenly between the two Oceans, but I would have a Ford and Nimitz in the Atlantic moved to the Pacific. This would, in the process of going out to sea, be the ships to replace Hornet at the Doolittle raid, with maybe B-25s numbering some 30 a piece. To escort these behemoths, a Nimitz, 2 Midways, and 2 Essexs, two of my PT Tenders, as well as the normal escorts. The rest of the carriers would be on their way to defend the troops at Wake, add onto the aircraft at Midway Island (Ranger and Wasp), and the rest on patrol everywhere else. In the meantime, I would deploy an Essex or two, as well as the 4 surviving old BBs around Pearl Harbor. During the time around Doolittle Raid, I would have the 5 of the Bogue CVEs off the West Coast, and the rest of them on patrol in the convoys. To aid the under-forced CVEs in the Pacific, I would add that some small seaplane tenders be added into the mix. Those conversions I mentioned earlier to the Essexs would be around 1943ish. I just remembered, the Lexingtons!!! I'd have these picketed near the northeast coast of Australia, based at Port Moresby. For the actual actions, my strategy would be that the for every major sized carrier (Forrestal+), there would be an Essex/Midway/Lexington Companion.

Now, onto the auxilary forces. To guard the vessels such as AOs, APAs, Aircraft ferries... I would assign the Pensacola, and Omaha class ships and destroyers. These, being Cruisers, are average at everything. The 8/6 inchers for surface targets, 5 inchers for AA, plus all of the small caliber weapons. And because these are the slow-pokes of the navy, the destroyers could be the 4-stackers. These would have torpedoes, depth charges, and medium caliber AA guns. The Amphibious Forces. That is a complicated one. The 3 ships I had mentioned, the ex-Yorktown CVs, and the more conventional LSTs, LCIs, etc. would have to be in a single Task Group. The Escorts could be made up of the same things as in the Carrier Fleet, except instead of Heavy Cruisers, the Brooklyn class Light Cruisers. Later in the war, the destroyers would be reduced, being replaced by Buckley and Butler class DEs.

For those of you who want some more details, drop me a PM.

Well, didn't they have tons of dynamite back then!!?!?!?!?!? :lol_pound: But, now, I'll take you on a tour of my ideas. At the start of the war, carriers would number: 8 Essex, 4 Midway, 4 Forrestal, 4 Nimitz, 2 Fords (2 on the ways) The original number of Essexs (24), would have been cut to 16 due to the end of WWI. Now, 4 Essex and 1 Forrestal have been sunk/damaged beyond repair at Pearl, and 3 Essex scrapped in the interwar years. The Yorktowns, though older, have a more important role now than they would have as Aircraft ferries - the fate of the Ranger and Wasp. I would be referring to my previous post here. The [i]Enterprise[/i] and [i]Yorktown[/i] as Amphibious Attack Transports, with two units of the Brodie system and 8 Piper scout aircraft a piece (APA-Ls). Also to undergo this conversion is an Essex class. The [i]Hornet[/i] would undergo conversion during the earliest phase of her construction: The LSD(L) design, also stated above. A Midway would become the paratroop carrier - stated above. The Langley, Ranger and Wasp would become Auxilaries. Langley as a target ship, and the Ranger and Wasp as Aircraft ferries. The Ferries would have all combat aviation facilities removed, and replaced with food ration containers. I'll explain the design in another post. The Essex class ships would become different types, as seen in their later careers. Maybe 2 CVS (Avengers and Mustangs) types, a scout carrier (Ship-based Kingfishers, Seahawks... and 2 fighter squadrons) and a full-time B-25 carrier (20 B-25 strafers, 1 fighter squadron).

Now, onto the escort issue. The large number of large ships requires some protection right? I say that the 8 Farraguts would be converted to PT Tenders. These would be the specialized torpedo and Sub-hunting types though. 16 depth charges a piece, plus 16+ Mousetrap racks on the Higgins 78 types. the Elco 80s would be the torpedo men. these could get up cloe and personal with any Japanese ship and unload their 4 torpedoes, and possibly serve as early warning scouts nearer to the fleet. Also, if the Somers class vessels were to have the AA equipment on the top of the deck removed and replaced by a catapault, these could have served better at scouting destroyers than the Fletchers. These could take the place of the aircraft on the cruisers and battleships, again, leaving more room for AA weapons. As another thought on the escorts, the number of Battleships should have been reduced. 2 North Carolinas, 2 South Dakotas, and 2 Iowas. The Alaskas should not have been built. Cruisers would number the same amount as the actual number, except with 9 more Clevelands, and 2 more Baltimores. Destroyers would be the same too. With more Aircraft flying off the decks, there would be less of a need for the huge escorts.

Hi,this is fascinating.I do have to say ,as a former ULCC captain, that I dislike ANY military vessel(COUNTRY NOTWITHSTANDING)that is so big it can,t really get out of it,s own way in tight quarters.On VLCCs and ULCCs we had to load and unload sometimes at a floating platform 2 miles offshore.Now translate that to a NIMITZ say that REALLY needs to get closer inshore.NO GO!! They got crazy on both size and the price the beleagured taxpayer had to pay.How long have the FORRESTALS been out of commission now? The life of a ship is now so ridiculously short.The surprise was that ALL WW2 naval units weren,t expected to last as long as they did.They were built cheaper per foot in NAVY facilities than in PRIVATE yards to.Now another thing is,where are the drydocks to repair these behemoths?? There isn,t many of those either.I feel we were blinded by sheer presence and size and sold a bill of goods as to they,re capability to take the battle from our shores.The ENEMIES we have are well aware of those large floating airfields shortcomings and whereabouts too! I say we need more MIDWAY(updated,of course) sized ships.They could if need be (it was a tight squeeze though) use the PANAMA CANAL, at least! commodore 4

My scrapped Hornet has given me an idea. Another Amphibious carrier I'm thinking about. Except, with a Yorktown. My Idea is, that if the Essexs and beyond were built in the 20s and 30s, the Yorktowns would be built into aircraft ferries or some other specialty ship. My idea is that the Enterprise and Yorktown would become [i]USS Enterprise CVPA-1 and USS Yorktown CVPA-2[/i] (Aircraft Carrier - Amphibious Transport - 1/2). They would hold 20 LCVP/LCPs and 12 LCM mk 6s each. The flight deck would be cut up so that it is copmletely flat on the port and starboard sides. The catwalks removed would make room for the machinery involved to lower the landing craft from the deck. The Hanger Deck would be completely sealed, open space would be made into maybe 3 armored compartments where the Marines would have their bunks. As for AA defense, the entire middle section of the flight deck would be free, and the guns that were once on the catwalks would be placed on platforms there. Maybe there would be room for two 5 inch twin mounts.

As for the Hornet, I had another idea. I would break it up like it was being scrapped, but in the mid and stern sections only. It would go down until the waterline. I would also eliminate the hanger deck and lengthen the hull by about 100 feet. Pumps and airtanks would be fitted too. The doors on the stern would be clamshells. (LST Type doors) This is basically an LSD on steriods. The well deck could hold SSSSOOOOOO much. I can't even say how many LVTs would fit, maybe an LST, 2 LCIs, etc... If this was built on the Wasp or Ranger Early in their service careers, they could be the mothership for 110' Subchasers, PT Boats, etc... If used at loaded with SCs in a carrier battlegroup, destroyers could focus on air attacks. Endless possibilities, especially when you think of the different varieties of craft these could carry.


I'll see about building the first design, and post progress if I do.

Okay, here is the Midway deck:[attachment=0]Midway Flight Deck 2.jpg[/attachment]

The Same things are shown here as in the Essex deck plan: enlarged catapault, enlarged elevator are in gray. This I think is more fitting due to the fact that the deck is large enough so that there is room for the gliders to get ready.

And before I forget, thanks to Cadman for the picture of the deck from the LCP Midway review!!!!!

Here is my take on what the deck of a paratroop Essex class would look like:[attachment=0]Essex Flight Deck 2.jpg[/attachment]

The long line running from the bow to the island is my HUGE catapault to assist in glider take offs. The tow plane (C-47 or C-46) would be attached to the catapault, and the glider attached right behind it. The Elevator in the rear would be enlarged, as well as the elevator on the port side. But, now that I think about it, the Essex is too small. I'll see if a Midway would suffice then.

I think (yes, again) the Gerald Ford would have been at the heart of the combat battlegroups. All of the Ford, Nimitz, and maybe 4 Essex class ships would have been running around with Halsey and his command. The rest of the Essex class would have to be the Amphib ops and other ideas I will come up with.

I just had another thought that might actually have helped win the war - the Nimitz class as the world's first Assault Carrier. With that huge deck, as well as hanger, and all of those compartments in the actual design that had no use back then, why not turn this into a paratrooper ship? It could carry the C-47 or C-46, but navalized with the folding wings and tailhook of course. The hanger could possibly house 40 something aircraft and all of the required maintenance equipment. That would sum up to carry some 1,000+ Marines. A squadron of Mustangs/Apaches could take care of the Escort/CAP issue, and they wouldn't even be needed if these carriers worked in Amphibious battle groups with a normal Essex along side. These troops could have been used to knock out those bunkers and other high security targets in the pre-invasion bombardment phase of an Amphib invasion, like the use of paratroopers in D-Day. Gliders probably would not have been an option, considering the amount of space needed to get them into the air. (Unless..........)

If I may, what if I added the Forestals into the mix. With the same WWII technology though. These ships could end up working alongside the pretty obsolete Essex class. (I'm not including Independence because they [i]were[/i] made as emergency carriers weren't they?).The Long Island, Langley, Ranger, Wasp, Yorktowns and Lexingtons would have been in mothballs or second-line duties if these were made.

If the Nimitz, Midway, and Forestal classes were made, I'm pretty sure the war would have been won sooner. But, back to the amphib idea. Assuming the Essexs would be on more minor carrier duties, [i]They[i] probably would have been the guinea pigs to this. I was thinking, to accomodate gliders, one or two of them would be fitted with a HUGE catapault. Maybe 3/5s of the deck long. The Essex would have probably been able to accomodate enough Marines to hit an airfield behind enemy lines (I'm actually thinking some 500 something men). The Aviation Support Crew would have been heavily reduced to maybe about 100 something men by then. This is assuming the crew number stayed around the same. Armament I'm guessing would require some 400 men, and the rest of the 1,700 something crew would be in as the actual ship crew. Once they've delivered the men, the C-47s could act as transports, ferrying supplies to the Marines on the ground.

I know what one of you will say about the whole paratrooper idea: The Pacific islands were not ideal paratroop terrain with the dense forests and jungles. Well, my answer to that is that places like Guadalcanal, Peleiu, Iwo, Okinawa, the Philippines +, and all have one thing that was a major threat to be taken care of, and a main target on every mission: An Airfield. The wing of attack aircraft would have spent quite a lot of time knocking out all of the flak guns, considering that the Japanese weren't really known to have so many around on the ground, and barracks buildings. With guns and a pretty large number of men taken care of, 200+ Marines could have survived well if they dug in. The Japanese were after all, expecting a sea invasion. Gliders could have brought in some 37mm AT guns, Jeeps, Mortars, a group of some 30 Seabees, fortification supplies, and reinforcements. These all would have helped in the Invasion to come. An Paratrooper Carrier could have possibly, if at Leyte, left the Escort Carriers of the Taffys (which could have been the Enterprise, Hornet, Sara, Yorktown, or Lex if the Forestals, Midways, Essexs, and Nimitzs were on the scene with Halsey) to fight the Center Force coming in to attack. I am not forgetting the escort ship issue though. I still think the Atlantas, Brooklyns, Clevelands, Baltimores, Fletchers, Bensons, and upcoming DD numbers should be the same, considering the massive airwing to stop incoming threats. Another thought: If the Japanese wanted to crush the USN at the Philippine Sea, they would have sent practically every aircraft that could be launched to attack, and with more aircraft Japanese shot down, that would mean less Kamikaze aircraft, less casualties, and the war would end a month even sooner.

A lot, I know, but this Amphibous idea could have saved a lot of everything. Some idea though.

I think that the solution to protecting the ship lies in numerous shipyards - like the Philly Navy Yard. I was watching a documentary that stated that their were hundreds of Wickes and Clemson class 4 Piper destroyers. The 4 inch gun armament - even though obsolete, a good surface action gun against the thin armor of U-Boat. Also, if I remember, these had tons of torpedoes and depth charges. Lastly, because this was a flush decker, there was enough space to put some K-guns, Hedgehogs, or Mousetraps.

I know the Carrier for Maritime Patrol didn't work early in the war, loss of HMS Courageous etc, however, advance in technology, proper ASW screen for the carrier, stick a radar & leigh light on the B25's loose the waist guns for Radar operators position. You could cover an awful lot of sea & co-ordinate the hunting groups

Admitedly the carrier has to be lucky all the time, and the U boat only needs to get lucky once, but the mere existance of such a vessel & her Aircarft, could have a restricting effect on U Boat operations. But admitidly is a very high risk strategy.

About your Atlantic Operations idea, it probably wouldn't be such a good idea, mostly because when you didnt's find a U-Boat, it found you. :heh:

It is an intersting concept. I presume the WW2 vessel would come complete with angle deck. In which case it might be an idea to have the cats on the angle for launching fighters / single engined trike aircaft, (although fighters would not need)and heavy duty off the bow for bombers

A thought struck me, a vessel like that in the Atlantic, using B25's or similar as maritime patrol, it would have given the U Boats and the surface raiders a lot fewer places to hide.

standard airwing, multi purpose something like 24 B25's 48 Heldivers, 48 Avengers, 48 Mustangs 24 P38's and 48 Hellcats / corsairs.

heavy / long range strike 48 B25's 24 Helldivers 24 Avengers 48 Mustangs 36 P38's and 36 Hellcats / corsairs.

Anti Kamikazi 12 B25's 24 Heldivers, 24 Avengers, 24 Mustangs 24 P38's and 132 Hellcats / corsairs.

maritime patrol / strike 48 B25's 24 Helldivers 48 Avengers 24 Mustangs 24 P38's and 36 Hellcats / corsairs

I would reckon that might work.

I was thinking 1944ish, just before the kamikaze threat. I completely understand the whole shipbuilding capacity issue here, and agree that this is highly inpractical, but this is a pretty good discussion right? The pros and cons of having this huge machine in battle. Actually I have an idea... :big_grin: Think of the morale affect this would have, or the aircraft capacity and types. I personally, would like to have the Mustang, Mitchell, Lightning, Avenger, and Helldiver or Dauntless on board. Huge potential, and with enough of some of these aircraft, they could cut short the pcoming kamikaze threat. Some food for thought...