The Ship Model Forum

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[quote="Cliffy B"]Yes there are...just didn't take the photos yet![/quote]Slacker!!!

[quote="Cliffy B"]Still need a 50 star US flag for Turret 2. Have any tiny ones Dave?[/quote]Not really. I might. I will get back with you over the PM.

So...how about those pictures?! :D

Yes there are...just didn't take the photos yet! Got the hangar deck bulkheads (fore to aft) assembled and glued on. Needs a coat of putty then I can start measuring for the interior spaces. Had to wait for the bulkheads to go on since they dictate the sizes of everything inside. I'll be using some 0.25mm or smaller strips to do the interior details and then glue them onto the main bulkheads after I paint them and the deck. Need to order a set of decals though I think before I install the detail sections. Still need a 50 star US flag for Turret 2. Have any tiny ones Dave?

Are there any updates on this? :D

Great looking progress, Cliffy!!! I really can't wait to see more!

Geee....and I asked you about it then too and completely forgot about it afterwards..... don't mind me :wacko:

POLAR was discussed a little on page 4/5 of the modernized DDG-51 Flt 1 thread:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=64665

Contains the same link you posted above. Discussion there may/may not add anything.

SMARTAS :big_grin: What a riot that would have been.

I agree, an upgraded extended range version would have perfect!! Too bad.... Any idea what the laser designator/FLIR would have looked like? I'd love to make a 1/350 version someday to go alongside my CVHA design. What a great looking pair they'd make! 1/700 first though. Have to iron out the kinks first :thumbs_up_1:

Heard anything about Lockheed's POLAR bombardment rocket? It was an adaptation of the Army's MLRS rocket. Can't find any real concrete specs other than that it was under 300nm range and could be quad packed in VLS like the ESSMs. It lost to the LASM in the contest and we all know how that fell on its face... POLAR sounds like it would have been a wonderful augment to TLAMs and guns if for nothing else than its size!

Precision Over the horizon Land Attack Rocket
[url]https://mfcbastion.external.lmco.com/missilesandfirecontrol/our_news/factsheets/factsheet-POLAR.pdf[/url]

Busto, I designed her primarily as an ASW SAG flagship but with the large hangar and flight deck a secondary role of USMC support is a given. I figure her place would be right at home providing ASW support to an ARG during transit and then shifting to fire support while still maintaining command and control over the ASW picture as well as extra helos while the cans go hunting. That being said, if the mission called for it, she could be loaded with Marines and their birds and act as a mini LPH as well with plenty of extra room aboard for them.

Thanks for the support guys, she's moving along. Hope to have another update this weekend after I start detailing the hangar bulkheads.

[quote="SumGui"]SMARTROC:

ref: Sumerall, Robert F; Sumner Gearing Class Destroyers, Their Design, Weapons, and Equipment, pg 142-3

"SMARTROC was a means of providing destroyers with a heavy shore bombardment/surface attack round that could be delivered with precision accuracy. The Naval Weapons Center (NWC), Dahlgren, developed the unique and inexpensive weapon during the Vietnam War, using existing technologies and weapons systems. SMARTROC consisted of a Mk82 laser-guided bomb projected by an ASROC booster from the Mk112 launcher. The program was originally called SMARTAS, a derivative of smart bomb (Paveway) and ASROC. The acronym was changed to SMARTROC for obvious reasons. A mark number (Mk) was never assigned..."

I won't reproduce the entire section here, but the numbers:

Two phases:
First Phase 72-73, using existing rocket motor and parts - 10,000yd (5nm) range, same as an ASROC round.
Second Phase 75-78, improved rocket motor and improved airframe (still fit in Mk112 box). 24,000yd (12nm) range

Tests seem to show approx. 20ft accuracy, for both, same as Paveway.

The mentioned reference also has information about Sea Chaparral, Firebee, DASH, Weapon Alfa, RAT, and SOB (Shrike On Board). An outstanding reference which I cannot recommend enough.

It has the only references I hold on SMARTROC, and SOB. It holds the best references I have to RAT, Weapon Alfa, DASH, Sea Chaparral, and the electronics fits of the late 60's-early 70's. It covers the FRAM processes, which can also help envisioning your conversion. I wish there was a reference like this for the conversion of the CGs...

(SOB was Shrike added to Gearings used for Shore Bombardment in Vietnam, with the intention of being able to respond to shore targets illumination the bombardment vessel. Four weapons were added to the top of the Mk112 box in a basic frame, and elevated and trained with the ASROC box. Installed in 10 Gearings from May 72 to Oct 73)

I mention these because they may have a bearing on how you might arm a 1972 version.

SMARTROC is on an early version of a shore-bombardment enhanced Spruance I intend to build - with SMARTROC and ASROC mixed in the magazine - along with the Mk71. Probably the Hayler DDH version, and a this be the first to get the ABLs in my altered timeline. Sounds to me like that is a near match for the roles you have for your build. (Of course, Laser guided 203mm rounds may make the SMARTROC less relevant...)

I also thought a SMARTROC equipped Knox might be reasonable for a get in close bombardment platform with the Mk42.

Basically, I love the SMARTROC idea - anything with an ASROC box becomes a potential bombardment platform.[/quote]

They could have called it SMARTAS(P) as in Anti surface (Paveway) I would have gone with SMARTASS.....

CGN9 could have used this weapon with multiple reloads (And a mast mounted Laser/FLIR on top of fwd mast) would have been a serious shore bombardment weapon. A mk2 or 3 version with improved booster and 20nm range would have been NASTY.

Great looking ship !! If you think about a hanger it is only the flight deck, elevator mechanisms and supports that are the heavy items, the sides are relatively thin (compared to the flightdeck). And if built using the same techniques as the Albany rebuilds (lots of light alloys...) might not be as heavy as it looks.

Cheers Bruce

PS I have something similar drawn on paper.....only for a somewhat larger model!

[quote="Cliffy B"]

[b]Aircraft:[/b]
3 SH-3 Sea Kings or
4-5 SH-2 Sea Sprites or
a combination of both[/quote]
Suggestion: presumably the primary reason for this conversion is to keep the 8" guns in fleet service, ergo these ships would likely deploy with the amphibs.

Outfiting her with USMC aircraft (UH-1s and possibly AH-1s) might make here a potent advance force ship.

Love this design and I looks forward to seeing her progress and completion.

So it begins....
[img]http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu194/CliffyB/Models/DSC_4332Edit2.jpg[/img]
More about the sub and OPV later :thumbs_up_1:


Dug out my old, poorly, half built 1/700 Trumpy [i]Baltimore[/i] and deemed her salvageable. I'm using the Hull, about half of the deck, the 8" turrets, and some other sundry parts. Rest will be scratch built. She'll be getting a fully detailed hangar with lowered lift and removable flight deck. Been staring at photos of the LHAs for design inspiration and I have the bulkheads mapped out to me liking now. Time to start detailing them! I was contemplating fire doors across the middle of the deck but decided against them. After some measuring I found out my hangar is slightly smaller than on the LHAs and they don't have one. Would have messed up my helo arrangement anyway :big_grin:

I'll post updates in a WIP thread later on, until then!

-Mike

The book does have two pictures, launches of one each of the early and late versions.

Interesting that you think the ASROC launcher is a drawback - I think it being able to launched from the ASROC box is its biggest strength. This means (after adding a laser target designator) any vessel with an already existing system can be a precision bombardment platform. While a Knox escorting convoys won't want to lose many ASROCs to a rare capability, the Spurance with an automatic reloader or an older vessel freed up by a Spruance playing ASW becomes a better bombardment vessel.

As an example it would certainly enhance an Adams going close in for fire support- probably the most likely platform to perform NGFS in the 70' and 80's once the Gearings were gone. An Adams using this would be a nice platform - two Mk42 5/54 (twice the rate of fire of Mk45), SMARTROC, smaller profile, SM-1 for self defense, etc.

How much more effective is a 500lb laser guided bomb than a 68lb 5" round? About 432lbs more effective - AND laser guided.... Remember you are not trading away a 5" or other mount for this weapon, you are using a mount already aboard which would otherwise be useless in the NGFS mission.

ASROC was on nearly every vessel out there - so no, not every vessel with ASROC would have been off hunting subs (FRAMs, Garcia, Bronstein, Knox, Adams, you name it...). I'd have loaded ASROC for the transit, and SMARTROC when on the gunline.

12nm certainly is not deep strike, but it does reach the horizon, and ain't a bad deal for not adding another weapons system to the vessel.

Edit to add: no direct mention of why it was cancelled, but it was cancelled in the same timeframe as the cancellation of the Mk71 and a number of other programs, which was the same time as large economic problems in the US, and when there was a fight rather there would be anymore CVNs or not. It is my opinion that this was cut for the same reason as the MCLWG - it distracted from the big-deck aviation community and was an easy target when Aviation and Submarines (LA Class, Trident program) were fighting over smaller budgets.

Thanks for reminding about Sumrall's book SumGui. I had it once from the library and almost forgot what a wealth of info it contains. I echo your sentiment about a book about the CGs as well; what a gem that would be though! I think I'm going to have to snag a copy off Amazon in the next day or so.

SMARTROC sounds like it could of been a nice addition to the arsenal. I think I'll have to incorporate it into my alternate world. But to play the naysayer for a moment, I can see some drawbacks to it. Range isn't all that great, even with the improved version. A 5" shell could go just as far and the ship could carry a whole lot more of those. How much more destructive would it be over a 5" shell? Accuracy would be better yes, but how much more accurate was this over a 5" shell, spotters or no spotters?

I think the biggest drawback though is its designed for the ASROC launcher, IE an eight-cell launcher. ASROC launchers were more valuable for almost all ships at that time for ASROCs. The killer is re-loads! How many ships carried a re-load capacity for their ASROC launchers and how large were those magazines? Those ships that had them were meant to be off hunting subs, not sitting on the gun line. How would the magazine be divided between the two weapons? A ship would have to be able to carry a large amount of SMARTROCs to be considered a useful addition I think. VLS would help this weapon out immensely and if the price tag was right it could be a very nice alternative to TLAMs. You don't always need to send a missile 600nm and a cheaper alternative would be very attractive. The fire support ships of the 1970s would have been an ideal platform for these weapons.

Does the book have any photos or drawings of SMARTROC by chance? I'm curious as to how the improved version looked and wonder if it could be adapted to ASROC to help out its short legs.

I wonder if I could install a second level magazine under or beside the rotaries in the [i]Sprucan[/i] style magazine I have on this and fill it full of SMARTROCs. That way one rotary could be filled with ASROCs and the other with SMARTROCs and each could be re-loaded as they were used. Hmmm...how to move the missiles around, they're not exactly 5" shells...hmmm... thoughts?

Great discussion gents, keep it up.

-Mike

Fascinating! Thanks! You know, the LCS is looking for a replacement for the NLOS. This sounds like it would potentially be a better alternative than the Griffon that the Navy is looking at.

Do you know why the program was halted?

Thanks,
Bob

Laser Guided (KMU-388 sensor and guidance package = Paveway). The text clearly implies that all rounds were guided, no reference is made to any consideration or provision for an unguided version. Note that one of the goals was 'precision accuracy'.

Location of the targeting laser is not specifically addressed in the column, however Friedman's US Naval Weapons (of 1983) states that a Navy/Army program started in 1971 showed hand held or shipboard provided an effective spot:

"The Navy side of this joint Army-Navy program included both 5in and 8in rounds, and guidance could be either by shipboard or by hand-held laser; CLGPs could be effective both in antiship and in shore bombardment roles. For example, during the tests of the 8in lightweight gun, the destroyer Hull made five hits out of five shots on a moored ex-destroyer"

CLGP = Cannon Launched Guided Projectile

So there had to be a shipboard targeting laser, and Paveway has never cared where the laser was coming from, just where it broke up, so I imagine shipboard, hand held, or airborne laser designators would have worked.

[quote="SumGui"]SMARTROC consisted of a Mk82 laser-guided bomb projected by an ASROC booster from the Mk112 launcher. [/quote]
Was the bomb laser guided in this application or just ballistic? If guided, was it intended that the laser designator be ship based or a local designator near the target?

Thanks,
Bob

SMARTROC:

ref: Sumerall, Robert F; Sumner Gearing Class Destroyers, Their Design, Weapons, and Equipment, pg 142-3

"SMARTROC was a means of providing destroyers with a heavy shore bombardment/surface attack round that could be delivered with precision accuracy. The Naval Weapons Center (NWC), Dahlgren, developed the unique and inexpensive weapon during the Vietnam War, using existing technologies and weapons systems. SMARTROC consisted of a Mk82 laser-guided bomb projected by an ASROC booster from the Mk112 launcher. The program was originally called SMARTAS, a derivative of smart bomb (Paveway) and ASROC. The acronym was changed to SMARTROC for obvious reasons. A mark number (Mk) was never assigned..."

I won't reproduce the entire section here, but the numbers:

Two phases:
First Phase 72-73, using existing rocket motor and parts - 10,000yd (5nm) range, same as an ASROC round.
Second Phase 75-78, improved rocket motor and improved airframe (still fit in Mk112 box). 24,000yd (12nm) range

Tests seem to show approx. 20ft accuracy, for both, same as Paveway.

The mentioned reference also has information about Sea Chaparral, Firebee, DASH, Weapon Alfa, RAT, and SOB (Shrike On Board). An outstanding reference which I cannot recommend enough.

It has the only references I hold on SMARTROC, and SOB. It holds the best references I have to RAT, Weapon Alfa, DASH, Sea Chaparral, and the electronics fits of the late 60's-early 70's. It covers the FRAM processes, which can also help envisioning your conversion. I wish there was a reference like this for the conversion of the CGs...

(SOB was Shrike added to Gearings used for Shore Bombardment in Vietnam, with the intention of being able to respond to shore targets illumination the bombardment vessel. Four weapons were added to the top of the Mk112 box in a basic frame, and elevated and trained with the ASROC box. Installed in 10 Gearings from May 72 to Oct 73)

I mention these because they may have a bearing on how you might arm a 1972 version.

SMARTROC is on an early version of a shore-bombardment enhanced Spruance I intend to build - with SMARTROC and ASROC mixed in the magazine - along with the Mk71. Probably the Hayler DDH version, and a this be the first to get the ABLs in my altered timeline. Sounds to me like that is a near match for the roles you have for your build. (Of course, Laser guided 203mm rounds may make the SMARTROC less relevant...)

I also thought a SMARTROC equipped Knox might be reasonable for a get in close bombardment platform with the Mk42.

Basically, I love the SMARTROC idea - anything with an ASROC box becomes a potential bombardment platform.

[quote]I like this proposal, but I wrestle with the ASROC box.[/quote]
Why thank you sir :thumbs_up_1:

[quote]Do you intend to refit a sonar and use the vessels is ASW, or have the ability for them to switch back and forth - ASW groups support during transit, fire support once in theater?[/quote]

Yes, she will get a sonar. Right now its a big bow mounted unit with an extended bow and stem anchor for clearance. I might opt for the two dome unit used on ships during the 60's and 70's since they would fit the time period for this conversion better. I don't know though...

[quote]I don't have real high confidence that the WWII era machinery would be a good fit for an aggressive ASW unit, and if she were to stand off, then let the ASW helos aboard do the work.[/quote]

You're absolutely correct and I came to the same conclusion as well. She'll be acting more or less as the centerpiece of an independent ASW group. The sonar and ASROC launcher are more for self defense than anything else. When that inevitably sub penetrates the screen I want the ship to have more than just a pair of Mk-32s.

These cruisers are meant to take the place of the [i]Essex-class CVSs[/i] when they retire and perform almost the same role. With the added feature of their gun batteries I have these ships almost always attached to an ARG providing ASW and fire support for them while in transit, in theater, and during/after the invasion. While providing fire support, the ship still provides command and control for the ASW screen while her helos and the screen actively search and prosecute contacts.

[quote]But If that is the case, the ASROC magazine could be a split between ASROC and SMARTROC (Mk82 LGB thrown with an ASROC booster from a Mk112 box - cancelled in the late 70's), or all SMARTROC if ASW is left to the helos or other platforms.
Otherwise, I would be tempted to trade the ASROC box for Sea Sparrow for point defense.[/quote]

SMARTROC huh? Sounds really neat. Do you have anymore info on it? All I can find on Google is reference to an abortive space based anti-satellite/anti-ICBM weapon.

It sounds like it could be a useful bombardment weapon if it has long enough legs. On the same vein, I've been looking at a series of bombardment launchers by Breda firing rockets ranging from 51-105mm in diameter. The Italians use them as countermeasure launchers as well with a variety of different chaff rockets loaded, among a myriad of other types. They are fairly small (about the size of an old twin 40mm) and lightweight and can carry up to 36 rockets a piece. A few of these might prove worthwhile although, with such a small magazine size they might not be worth it unless mounted in large numbers. I wonder if the old pepper box could be utilized in a similar fashion making an effective naval MLRS? Hmmm....

Thoughts gents?

Glad you guys are liking the design :thumbs_up_1:

-Mike

I like this proposal, but I wrestle with the ASROC box.

Do you intend to refit a sonar and use the vessels is ASW, or have the ability for them to switch back and forth - ASW groups support during transit, fire support once in theater?

I don't have real high confidence that the WWII era machinery would be a good fit for an aggressive ASW unit, and if she were to stand off, then let the ASW helos aboard do the work.

But If that is the case, the ASROC magazine could be a split between ASROC and SMARTROC (Mk82 LGB thrown with an ASROC booster from a Mk112 box - cancelled in the late 70's), or all SMARTROC if ASW is left to the helos or other platfoms.

Otherwise, I would be tempted to trade the ASROC box for Sea Sparrow for point defense.