The Ship Model Forum

I´ve got your idea, sounds good and feasible. I´ll try it.

Gracias!

Hi Patricio,

I didn't make any pictures of the process, step by step. But what I did was very simple: I cut off the deck wit a razor saw, just below the curved rim but well above the flooding holes (limber holes). I then glued two square Evergreen strips .040 x .040, on top of eachother, on the rim of the boat, then another strip .010 x .040 on top of that, to cover for the saw cut loss, and let these dry very carefully.

Next I used a file to taper these strips back to 0, front and back, and glued the deck back on. Then of course filling and sanding.[attachment=0]AFV modified sb2.jpg[/attachment]

When you click on the picture included here you see an enlargement.

The filling of the rear limber holes is anotrher story of course.

[quote="Maarten Schönfeld"][quote]The AFV kit´s decks of Guppy I and Guppy II have a fold upwards towards the bow. This change in angle starts at the sail base. Again, if we compare the AFV hull contour, specially at the deck, with the real Guppies, that fold / break doesn´t exist. All Guppies decks are continous and flush from bow to stern.
[/quote]

Please check on my entry in this thread last June, when I noticed that the AFV Club deck has too much curve, about two mm too low in the midddle. I also proposed a solution with pictures, and drawing proof of the fact.[/quote]

Thank you Maarten.
Do you have more pictures of the process? I´ve considered into filling with putty the straight line that runs from bow to stern, but then I realizaed it will be a nightmare to rescribe the deck detalis. I´d like to see how your Guppy project ended.

Gracias

Patricio

[quote]The AFV kit´s decks of Guppy I and Guppy II have a fold upwards towards the bow. This change in angle starts at the sail base. Again, if we compare the AFV hull contour, specially at the deck, with the real Guppies, that fold / break doesn´t exist. All Guppies decks are continous and flush from bow to stern.
[/quote]

Please check on my entry in this thread last June, when I noticed that the AFV Club deck has too much curve, about two mm too low in the midddle. I also proposed a solution with pictures, and drawing proof of the fact.

I´m not the only one who detected these mistakes.
[url]http://www.thepmw.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3103[/url]
I wish I could translate Chinese (for some reason my Chrome internet translator doesn´t work.)

I´ve been watching the extensive collection of pictures of the USS Corporal crew association:

[url]http://www.ss346.com/BoatPhotos.htm[/url]

Here we can see the progress of that ship probably through all the Guppy iterations.
It´s also very interesting that some of those pics shows her moored along other sisters in different guppy configurations.
At that site there´s also a picture of a model of USS Corporal that clearly shows these differences:

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img109/6773/corporalmodel.jpg[/img]

Now I´ve watched more and more pictures of the real subs and of models by other makers, I´ve found that the AFV model has another probable mistake.
The AFV kit´s decks of Guppy I and Guppy II have a fold upwards towards the bow. This change in angle starts at the sail base. Again, if we compare the AFV hull contour, specially at the deck, with the real Guppies, that fold / break doesn´t exist. All Guppies decks are continous and flush from bow to stern.
The more I see them the more I convince myself the AFV Club kit sail and (now) hull need corrections. (in my humble opinion, off course..)

Saludos

P

It is hard to tell, I know the GUPPY III had a longer sail than the atlantic sails on the Other fleet boats with atlantic sails. So maybe thats what it is?

I don´t want to be pointed as a nitpicker, but I´m starting to believe that even the side outline of the sail is also out of proportion...:(
Picture of the model by Tom Cleaver´s review here[url]http://modelingmadness.com/review/misc/ships/us/tmcguppy2.htm[/url]
Below is a photoshopped correction by me.
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img812/5232/arasantiagodelesteronue.jpg[/img]
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img203/9859/tmcguppy2a.jpg[/img]
This is probably a more accurate outline. What do you think?
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img585/8201/tmcguppy2arevisado.jpg[/img]
Big overhaul ahead...

P

More pictures. They do clearly show the tapering at the sail sides.

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img834/5721/santafe1w.jpg[/img]
[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img834/1436/santafeaveriado.jpg[/img]

Now I´ll have to devise a strategy to correct AFVs turret, without altering the side outline, which seems correct.

Saludos

Patricio

[quote="Patman"]I´ve bought both AFV Guppies. I want to make the ARA Santa Fé, but after viewing pictures of the real sub and other Guppy II sisters and comparing them with the model, I can see that the sail shape on the real subs have a little tapering from bottom to top. The Picture of the review shows an almost constant sail horizontal section without that tapering. Please, let me know if there are differences among Guppy II with North Atlantic sails.

Thanks

Patricio

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img600/9368/jorgebovedasubmarinosan.jpg[/img][/quote]

Hmmm. Good catch. Will take some different pictures of the AFV sails, but I think you've caught an error.

I´ve bought both AFV Guppies. I want to make the ARA Santa Fé, but after viewing pictures of the real sub and other Gupy II sisters and comparing them with the model, I can see that the sail shape on the real susbs have a little tapering from bottom to top. The Picture of the review shows an almost constant sail horizontal section without that tapering. Please, let me know if there are differences among Guppy II with North Atlantic sails.

Thanks

Patricio

[img]http://imageshack.us/a/img600/9368/jorgebovedasubmarinosan.jpg[/img]

[quote="D-Boy"]Maarten, we all welcome the details you've provided. Can you take a shot top-down of the sail to show the new dimensions from that angle?

Many thanks,

- D-Boy[/quote]
Hi D-Boy,

Happy to oblige![attachment=2]AFV modified top.jpg[/attachment]
You can see by the original deck scribings where the sail used to fit before my modification.

Let me also add the drawings I have of the Italian/Dutch type:[attachment=1]Side view.JPG[/attachment][attachment=0]Plan view.JPG[/attachment]

On the HNSA plans page you can find similar plans of SS-339, SS-350 and SS 394, all having the Type II large 'Atlantic' sail, while SS-376 has the Type IA/B sail.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/index.htm


Enjoy!

Great info. and photos. I had no idea that a ship like Cutlass was still in service. That's a service life approaching 70 years. Amazing.

Maarten, we all welcome the details you've provided. Can you take a shot top-down of the sail to show the new dimensions from that angle?

Many thanks,

- D-Boy

Hi D-Boy,

May I add some of my experience with the Guppy 1B kit so far? I have general booklet plans of these ships.

My improvement to the kit starte with lifting the deck, as the kit's sheer is much too pronounced, so I adde about 2 mm in the middle, tapering to 0 at the bow and stern.

Secondly I reduced the number of limber holes in the rear part, by selectively filling some of them. thirdly, some new holes needed to be added near the bow planes.

Thirdly I added/altered the exhaust holes, and added the (ladder) steps.

Fourth, I lengthened the bilge keels, and consigned the sonar dome to the spares box (as the Dutch/Italian ships didn't have this sonar, but a simpler unit added to the deck rim: I will have to scratch that).

Then I turned to the sail: the rear was too blunt, so I made it more pointed in plan view. The fron was too sharp, so I added a new front from Evergreen tube.

Well, these were my changes so far. I haven't got the IIB kit, maybe some of the improvements described also apply to that kit. General Booklet plans are available from the HNSA site.

Wanted to make a quick comparison of these two AFV kits in case others want to build or convert them:

[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/DrWind/AFV%201%20350%20Guppy%20Submarine%20Kits/June28030.jpg[/img]

At first glance, most components shared, but some key differences between these two kits:

AFV #73512 (lower kit in picture) depicts the USS Dace (SS-247), a Gato Class submarine built at Electric Boat and later converted under the GUPPY Ib program, recommissioning in 1954 for eventual transfer to Italy's Marina Militaire in 1955, where she served until 1972 as Leonardo da Vinci (S-510).

Wikipedia notes the GUPPY 1b program was "an informal designation for a limited upgrade and modernization given to four boats for transfer to foreign navies. These boats had snorkels and were generally similar to the GUPPY IA, except that they were not equipped with the modern sonar, fire control systems, or ESM. The two Italian boats were of the thin-skinned Gato class."

USS Barb (became ITNS Enrico Tazzoli (S-511) Marina Militare)
USS Dace (became ITNS Leonardo da Vinci (S-510) Marina Militare)
USS Hawkbill (became HNLMS Zeeleeuw (S-803) Royal Netherlands Navy)
USS Icefish (became HNLMS Walrus (S-802) Royal Netherlands Navy)

AFV #73513 (upper kit in picture) depicts the USS Cutlass (SS-478), a Tench Class submarine built by Portsmouth Naval Yard and later convered under the GUPPY II program, with the conversion happening in 1948 at Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. Eventually decommissioned in 1973 (there's quite a gap in Wikipedia's history), Cutlass was sold to the Republic of China, where she was commissioned in the Republic of China Navy as ROCS Hai Shih ("Sea Lion"), SS-791. As of April 2012, Hai Shih was still in service - she is noted in the instruction's notes as the world's longest-serving diesel submarine.

Wikipedia notes that the GUPPY II program implemented from 1947 to 1951 "was generally similar to the GUPPY I, except for retention of both periscopes and introduction of the recently perfected snorkel. The addition of three new masts — snorkel induction, snorkel exhaust, and ESM mast — required more room in the upper portion of the sail. BuShips approved two different sail designs:

The "Electric Boat Sail" had a straight trailing edge, round windows, a wider top and a more rounded forward edge.

The "Portsmouth Sail" had a thinner top, curved trailing edge, square windows and a sharper lower forward edge. It was put on all boats that used the government plans for the conversion.

Some boats with a Portsmouth Sail had an SV radar and needed extra room to house the aerial, thus had a bulge at the sail top. Later modifications put the SS or SS2 radars on these and other boats that had a smaller aerial and had an indicator with interlocks, allowing the mast to be housed only with the aerial in certain angular positions. Also, some GUPPY II and GUPPY III boats had their sails extended higher above the waterline, the "Northern Sail", to raise the bridge, allowing it to be manned in more severe weather."

Other submarines receiving the Guppy II conversion (but not necessarily of the Tench Class modeled here) were:

Catfish (became ARA Sante Fe (S-21) Argentine Navy) (with a Falklands Conflict role)
Clamagore
Cobbler
Cochino
Corporal
Cubera
Diodon
Dogfish (Became Guanabara (S-10) Brazilian Navy)
Greenfish
Halfbeak
Tiru
Trumpetfish (Became Goiás (S-15) Brazilian Navy)
Tusk (Became Hai Pao (SS-792) Republic of China Navy) Active in service
Cutlass (Became Hai Shih (SS-791) Republic of China Navy) Active in service
Amberjack (Became Ceará (S-14) Brazilian Navy)
Odax
Sirago
Pomodon
Remora
Volador
Sea Leopard (Became Bahia (S-12) Brazilian Navy)
Grampus (Became Rio Grande do Sul (S-11) Brazilian Navy)
Pickerel
Grenadier

For those interested in modeling any of the above other than the USS Tusk/ROC Hai Pao presented in this kit, you're going to have to check USS class type and GUPPY conversion sail type before beginning your builds to assure accuracy. It certainly is possible to switch out hulls and sails between these two kits and still fit parts. I'm not yet certain, but believe the AFV GUPPY ib kit features the "Portsmouth" sail; the AFV GUPPY II kit features the "Atlantic" sail.

So, to be specific about the differences in the two kits:

AFV #73513 (Guppy II)
Ex-Tench Class
Atlantic Sail
Larger sonar array
Anchor location on port side
No limber holes
Upper hull planking pattern and deck features distinctly different from AFV #73512
Decals for both USN and ROC boats
PE includes distinct railings for this class, running partial length of deck

AFV #73512 (Guppy Ib)
Ex-Balao Class
Portsmouth Sail
Small sonar array, located further aft
Anchor location on staboard side
Limber holes
Upper hull planking pattern and deck features distinctly different from AFV #73513
Decals only for Italian naval service
PE includes distinct railings for this class, running the full length of the deck, and handrails for the sail

Here's a comparison of the two sail types. The Ib kit comes with wind shield:

[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/DrWind/AFV%201%20350%20Guppy%20Submarine%20Kits/June28035.jpg[/img]

GUPPY Ib hull bow, with limber holes:

[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/DrWind/AFV%201%20350%20Guppy%20Submarine%20Kits/June28044.jpg[/img]

Guppy Ib stern:

[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/DrWind/AFV%201%20350%20Guppy%20Submarine%20Kits/June28045.jpg[/img]

Initial assembly (dry-fit sail), GUPPY II - note no limber holes:

[img]http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/DrWind/AFV%201%20350%20Guppy%20Submarine%20Kits/June28050.jpg[/img]

My build of the GUPPY II kit has been straightforward, with all parts fitting easily so far. As a result, initial painting has begun, with the laying down of a wood-color for the deck that will shortly be overpainted in black. Hoping to draw some of that base color through, however, as part of a more weathered look.

There is CASF thread related to the GUPPY conversions that is worth reviewing, with a nice resin build featured there and details on resin conversion parts for a GUPPY upgrade for Revell's 1:72 Gato.