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Topic review - Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Does anyone know how many MD-3s and P-25s are assigned to a carrier? I know there are a minimum of two P-25s. Thanks for the help!

Dave C.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
To continue the discussion on aircraft towing tractors/tugs, I just ordered and received a set of 1:350 Moto-Tug tractors, as produced by 'BaconFistModels' from Shapeways, and have to recommend them; they are very fine and look excellent.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/MBK7S ... _content=2

For Jeeps on carrier decks, the 1:350 L'Arsenal Jeeps are superb, very finely detailed indeed (even the tyre tread is fairly clearly moulded).

http://www.larsenal.com/jeep-willys-1-350-c2x15950581
Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
A surprise update to my last post - I stumbled across two pictures of the Tilly on Bataan in March of 1944, so she carried one for a few months. They really had to crank it in to fit it on the parking platform behind the island though. It's hard to make out, but it's behind the island in this photo on her Navsource page.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
MM2CVS9 wrote:
There was one jeep already assigned to ESSEX - for the use of the Captain.


The earliest I've been able to find mention of official sanction of multiple jeeps on carriers is October of 1943:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... rTugs.html
However, it references a July 1943 document that I don't have and cancels/supersedes the allowances in that one - it's possible there was a bump as early as July.

Also, since I'm bumping this thread, LeTournea cranes (aka "tilly") was used on CVs and "Karry Kranes" used on smaller (CVE/CVL) ships. I've seen a photo of a Tilly on CVL-29 Bataan, but only one, and it was stateside (Hunters Point September 1944). I've seen variations in detail on the Karry Kranes, but here's a shot of one:
http://www.fold3.com/document/188345491/
Post Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
When I was browsing the MW gallery looking for something else, I stumbled across this pic.
Image
Post Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Red, check your PM
There's lots of stories like that out there from the ESSEX crewmen. I've got one my dad (93) wrote most of which will never be "official". Lots more told to me by guys he served with in the "Red Arrow" division. I meet with these guys every month at the National Guard Armory NCO club. There are still 20 of them alive and kicking.

EJ
Post Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
cool story! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :big_grin:
Post Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
After my last post, I decided to call a friend of mine in MO, to check my facts. This man was a flight deck officer, going aboard ESSEX April 1943.

I got the jist of the story right, but a few errors. He e-mailed me the story from the previously mentioned book, and a photo taken by Paul Madden.

Sorry about the length of the post, but I thought it worth telling.The story was written by Robert Hollingsworth and four other men at a reunion in the mid 90's. I have omitted parts to keep this a little shorter.

Image

After commissioning, the first combat planes used for training were Douglas Dauntless's. Because they were relativly light, they could be pushed around easily. Later, at Hunter's point, when they were taking aboard the F4F's, SB2C's and TBM's, that were much heavier, the flight deck crews were bitching and complaining about being tired and sore from pushing these planes around. Some of the plane handlers hatched the idea of using jeeps and went to the ship fitter with the idea. The metalman told them they could rig something up, measured up a jeep and that problem was solved. Next was - how to get jeeps. Every item on a ship, for replacement or augmentation, had to be requisitioned. Jeeps were more difficult to get and always needed justification. There was one jeep already assigned to ESSEX - for the use of the Captain. When ESSEX reached Pearl Harbor, there was huge amounts of material and equipment being unloaded every day on the pier. Two of the flight deck crew left the ship to dump garbage. When they were finished, they went over to the area where the newly arrived jeeps were lined up. They picked two, got in and drove to the area where huge nets were loading supplies aboard and got in line. When their turn came, they drove onto the net, got out and waved a hand in a circle to haul away. They had prepared two slips to attach to the steering wheel specifying For delivery to VIA. Two other conspiritors on board, with official looking papers in their hands, were waiting to drive the jeeps to the after end of the hangar deck, where they would not be so noticable. The tow bars were quickly installed. The following day they were in use towing planes. The work of plane spotting was completed more quickly and with less tiring effort. Along with the Captains jeep, for his use on shore or use aboard ship, and the two stolen ones, they had three. They were able to respot the deck in record time. When the word got out around the fleet, as it always does (scuttlebutt you know), pressure mounted on other carriers to get jeeps as well. Later, the Navy decided that tow tractors were in order, but the handlers didn't like them as they were slow and handlers other than the driver couldn't ride on them very well, so they just got pushed off to the side and they went back to the jeeps.
It may seem remarkable that two jeeps could be stolen off the docks in Pearl, hoisted aboard without someone questioning the action. Truly remarkable was that no one aboard ESSEX questioned where the jeeps came from. One day they began to tow planes and everybody thought that was an improvement and how much better that was. Many Admirals and Captains from other ships sent messages of congratulation to the plane crews for their efficient movement of planes resulting in faster launchings and landings.
These achivements deserve official credit in the Naval history books. At the time of the taping, Mr Hollingsworth had to promise not to use the names of the innovators. This achivement will be lost to history unless one of the ten men privy to the conspiricy decides to hold a press conference.

The whole story with all the details can be seen in Mr Streb's book. The attached photo was taken by Paul Madden, Photograpers Mate, who's pictures have been published in Naval archives and many many publications. Paul passed away Dec 20, 2004. Mr Volkema passed away in 2002, Mr Streb passed away 21 Nov, 2007. I do not know if Mr Hollingsworth is still alive. All were members of the USS ESSEX Association. The WWII membership is passing quickly now and this story will probably never become part of official Naval history, even though it revolutionized plane handling on aircraft carriers.

EJ
Post Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:14 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Gopher,
Jeeps were 4 wheel drive = better traction. The tractors were 2 WD and narrower = sqeeze between planes.

EJ,
As a first class scrounger (E-7), I can fully appreciate the necessity to liberate property to enable successful completion of an organization's mission. However, I have noticed that it is much easier to retain possession of a piece of equipment when you are at least authorized to have at least one of that item. Having that authorization deters questions from the outside if it suddenly appears on deck as you pull away from North Island and the fact that the supply system had failed to provide is not well known. Having a few spares can also be hidden in the activity inherent to flight ops and suitably "stowed" during an inventory that might come up.

My father was an SC trouble shooter during that war and once liberated five 2 1/2 ton trucks on behalf of a California base that couldn't get their allotment through legitimate requisition. But, he was aware of another base that had a growing pile of packing cases. So he took 5 drivers and appeared at the box wealthy base, saying that he could use 5 truck loads but didn't have the trucks. That base happily loaded 5 trucks and sent him on his way. After the war, as a civilian employee of BuSandA (Bureau of Supplies and Accounts), he ran across the records of a California base that could not account for five trucks.
Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Quote:
Russ2146 wrote:
For the record, the jeeps were not "borrowed", they were standard equipment.


That is according to the "official" records, October 1943.
I have seen personal photo's in the USS ESSEX Association memoribalia room, of jeeps being used on the ESSEX, the first new carrier to go to the pacific, taken in Early June, of jury rigged jeeps being used on the flight deck to help spot planes. I have heard the story first hand, from WWII flight deck officers. They had learned during the flight training with air group 9, the difficulty of moving these planes manualy. When the opportunity struck, a jeep was "appropriated" from the pier and jury rigged to pull planes. When the word got around and fleet officers saw how this helped, requests went out for vehicles for othe carriers as well. I have also not seen pictures of any carriers prior to Dec of 1942 with deck vehicles aboard, nor of ESSEX with them prior to June of 1943.

Also, the ESSEX Air Officer's used the angled flight line early on, even though the angled flight deck wouldn't be built for several years. It was actually an angled take off line. Flight dispatcher Officer Russel Volkema was the man that started doing this. The purpose was to allow the slip stream from the previous plane to disapate faster, allowing shorter wait times between launches. The Essex was able to launch and recover planes faster than other carriers until later in the war when a fleet officer, (actually Admiral John McCain - commander of task group 38). [Life and Death Aboard the USS ESSEX by Richard Sreb] came aboard to observe the methods used. Our officers attributed the eary success to the ability to respot planes faster, among other things.

I guess if you want to credit only the "official" written naval documents as being 100% true, you can, but I prefer to believe what I hear right from the horses mouth - the plank owners and other veterans that actually did the deeds. I was fortunate to have met with Mr. Streb here in Grand Rapids, to hear first hand about some of this stuff. This was a period of experimentation because all this stuff was still new, most of which had no training manuals or written instructions. A lot of what actually happened is disappearing forever, as the WWII generation is passing away very quickly now, taking this information with it. I know that lots of stuff happened on ESSEX in the 60's when I was aboard that will never hit the record books either.

EJ
Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
What was the point of having a moto-tug on a carrier, when the jeep could basically do everything. Or, why have jeeps on carriers in the first place? It never made sense to me.
Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
For the record, the jeeps were not "borrowed", they were standard equipment.
28 October 1943: CVs, CVLs and CVEs - Automotive Equipment[/quote]

Jeeps:
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Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Deck Equip WW II:
Tilly:
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Models
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Aircraft Tugs:
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Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Again the movie "The Bridges at Toko-Ri" has some great shots of towes and 'tilly' during the Korean war, which had not changed significantly since WWII. Also . . . a great Movie for Essex class carrier flight deck footage. Oriskany I believe.
Post Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:37 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Have a look on my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52390

Russ was very helpful, and for once, nearly admitted defeat!
Post Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Anybody got info. on what color the deck tractors and/or other vehicles were on US WWII carriers? Was it kinda like an intermediate blue shade of color or something else?
Post Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
For those who really need it, there are some models in the Gallery sporting a Tilly Crane, like this one: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Post Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, Equip., A/C, A/C Group fans  Reply with quote
Yup, sounds right. The Navy has a nickname for virtually everything.

EJ
Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all CV Weaps, TILLY CRANE  Reply with quote
TILLY CRANE... was born of a short version of UTILITY crane for onboard carrier assorted duties. It was eventually shortened to 'utility'. No set date when that happened, but it was just simple passed on down word of mouth..
Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 11:22 am
  Post subject:  Re:  Reply with quote
CVN Clicker wrote:
Jose,

Tilly cranes are standard, even on carriers today.

They can lift an aircraft and move it, dump it over the side, etc.

But I've never been able to find the origin of the name "Tilly."


I've contacted a flight deck officer that was aboard ESSEX (from the Essex Assn). He thinks it was "born" with that name as it was called that when he went aboard in April 1944. I've got him cuious though. He's contacting some of the few veterans from that era that are left to try to find out. We have 18 "plank owners" still in the organization.

EJ
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:06 pm

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