The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:15 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
type everything in between the quote marks: "N0$pam" Note the Zero:
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I haven't weighted in because I don't really have anything to add - I've been looking for official documents that would give us something concrete (as much as two attempts over a year's period can be considered "looking") and have busted. That said, I've been working on CV-38 Shangri-La's Air Group with the help of others and there are some similarities to what Mark listed for Essex.
Post Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thomas,

I hope you don't mind me responding (I'm sure Tracy will correct me where I'm wrong! ;) ), but I think I can help a little (if not, I'm sure I'll add to the confusion!).

FWIW, these are probably the best resources out there on CVG-4 and its time aboard Essex:

http://www.airgroup4.com/ and http://www.airgroup4.com/torpedo-squadron-four.htm

Just to be sure, Essex was wearing her "dazzle" (Measure 32, Design 6/10D) in December 1944 (she wore it April 1944 to mid-March 1945, the best I can tell), but it was pretty heavily weathered by December. I would love to find a photo of her port side between frames where she had been kamikazed on 25 November 1944, as I would think that area would be somewhat differently shaded. Nevertheless, that area doesn't show up in any of my uncle's papers/cruise books/etc. (he served on her from late '43 until Feb. '46). nor other publications (there's some of the damage, but none of the repair that I've found).

When in December 1944 do you want to model her? It appears you want to model her early- to late-month with the aircraft you describe. But just to be sure, through most of December it APPEARS she carried ~55 F6F-3 & F6F-5X (mostly the latter, and the X stands for the regular -5, -5P, and -5N), ~24 SB2C-3, and ~18 TBM-1C until the 28th. Sources:

5 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft
12 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft
19 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft

HOWEVER, I'm not sure I exactly trust those numbers, as I have trouble seeing the drastic changes of F6F-3 and -5 between the three dates.

Also, Essex's cruise book Saga of the Essex lists CVG-4 as having 49 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, 25 SB2C-3, and 18 TBM-1C from 18 November 1944 until right before 11 December 1944. Right before setting sail from Ulithi on that date, her compliment of VF was increased to 69 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, and VB and VT were reduced to 15 each (same aircraft types as before).

Then, on 27 December, VB-4 (15 SB2C-3) was detached, and on 28 December, VMF-124 and VMF-213 reported aboard with 36 F4U-1D split evenly between them, VF-4 was reduced back to 50 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, and VT-4 switched from TBM-1C to TBM-3. CVG-4 would carry this basic compliment forward until being detached on 10 March 1945.

SO, short story long, CVG-4 for most of December 1944 was mostly F6F-5 (solid blue, with perhaps a few -3 tri-color), SB2C-3 (tri-color), and TBM-1C (tri-color). All these carried the horizontal white stripe on their vertical stabilizers, carried over from CVG-15. VERY late that month, VB-4 and its SB2C-3 were detached and replaced by F4U-1D (overall navy blue; they got the horizontal stripe on the vertical stabilizer, too, but possibly not until early January (by the 7th), as I've seen a few Corsair pics labeled as VMF-124/-213 without stripes).

It wasn't until late (28, IIRC) January 1945 that CVG-4 less VB-4 plus VMF-124 and VMF-213 received orders to switch from the unofficial horizontal stripe to the G-symbol "double diamonds", worn by Essex air groups (Four and Eighty-three) through the Tokyo strikes, Iwo Jima, Okinawa campaign, and July strikes on the Home Islands.

As to modex numbers, I have trouble finding anything definitive. VF-15 generally wore the numbers 1 to the mid-50s (I've seen "55", and excluding McCampbell's Minsi's). When VF-4 replaced VF-15, they kept Fabled Fifteen's aircraft. There's a photo in Gerald Thomas's book that has a F6F-5 on the deck edge elevator in November '44 wearing "48", so I think I'm pretty close to right, but I would love to get visual confirmation.

Here's some decent footage out there from the day of her kamikaze hit (25 Nov. '44) with clear views of some Hellcat and one Helldiver (69) numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROjC7breGo

You can pick out a few more numbers (mainly VF) here (apparently 29 Nov. '44): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og4V13Uwzis

The Avengers wore numbers in the 80s and 90s. I'm sharing these because I'm pretty sure the same system was carried through into December.

After the Marines went on board, the Corsairs appear to wear numbers between the 60s and mid-90s (97 is the highest I've seen), and the Avengers wore numbers in the 120s and 130s. And I'm pretty sure the Hellcats wore numbers in the 50s and below (again, I'm always hunting for visual confirmation).

So, with all the changes in aircraft compliment in December 1944 with CVG-4, I haven't found anything absolutely definitive for her squadrons (and I want to!). I THINK before 11 December 1944, VF-4 would have wore 1-55ish, VB-4 would have worn 55-79ish, and VT-4 would have worn 80-95ish. For the brief period between 11 December and 27 December, I really don't know. I would THINK that they probably didn't have time to repaint VB-4 and VT-4 numbers, but that is pure speculation. I've got NO photo evidence (yet!) of that exact (short) time period.

Assuming CVG-4 kept CVG-15's aircraft (which I'm confident they did), as to location of numbers, Essex fighters through after her early-'44 refit and before the Marines came on board wore their number on their vertical stabilizer and the small main gear doors. SB2Cs were similarly marked. TBMs had smaller numbers on their cowling and vertical stabilizer, and larger ones near the insignia on the fuselage. F4Us wore numbers on the fuselage in front of the insignia and on their main gear doors. If you want links to photos, let me know.

As to special markings, the only thing I've seen are the last three digits of the BuNos painted on some cowlings. These were mainly on replacement aircraft, of which there could be a lot, depending on losses or strikes. CVG-4 was pretty bereft of any nose art or squadron markings.

CVG-83 on the other hand, especially after Fightin' Freddy Sherman left in June '45, had a LOT of nose art. Also, after CVG-83 went on board were the aircraft renumbered, and I've got pretty good data for that (VF & VBF: 100s, VB: 200s, VT: 300s until July '45, then VF: 100s, VBF: 200s, VB: 300s, and VT: 400s).

FINALLY, as to the history of USN fleet carrier aircraft numbers, from all my years of studying WW II naval aviation, at the beginning of the war until some time in 1944 (I don't know the exact date, but probably the summer of), each squadron started with the numeral one and went up from there. Then in the summer of '44 it appears, probably to reduce confusion with the deck crews, it appears the planes were renumbered consecutively, with the VF first, then the VB, then the VT. Things started changing in early (March?) 1945, when the VF and VBF were renumbered to the 100s, VB 200s, and VT 300s. Then later on (summer '45), it appears each squadron was given a different number (VF 100s, VBF 200s, VB 300s, VT 400s). HOWEVER, on ships that carried the same type of VF and VBF, I'm not sure they renumbered each squadron, as they usually shared aircraft. HOWEVER, NONE OF THIS IS BASED ON DOCUMENTS, just from studying photographs and dates. And ships converted at different times. What's true for Essex date-wise may not be true for Yorktown or Ticonderoga or Hancock or Shangri-la, etc.

I can't wait to see everything when you're done!

Mark
Post Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I've been holding off on asking in the hopes that I would find what I'm looking for elsewhere, but so far no luck.

I'm working on the 1/350 CV-9 dated to December 1944. Most of the ship is coming together and the air group is built/painted, but now I'm struggling with the appropriate markings.

Thanks to Tracy and all of his hard work, I know CVG-4 was aboard with F6Fs, TBMs, and SB2Cs. I have 22 F6Fs in GSB, 15 TBMs in tri-color, and 18 SB2Cs in tri-color.
I have the horizontal stripe on the vertical stabilizers, and I'm working on the national insignia decals (star on blue circle with white bars, no outlines). Were there any other markings on the Essex air groups I'm missing?

I also want to add the aircraft numbers but don't really know where to begin. My case of AMS has not gotten so bad (yet) that I need specific, historically accurate numbers, just numbers that would look appropriate. For example I have read that later groups had plane numbers based on squadron type (i.e. 100 for fighters, 200 for bombers, 300 for torpedo). I've noticed in some pictures I've found the last few digits of the Bureau number are on the engine cowling, while a different number is just aft of the wings and on the tail. Is there a rhyme or reason to what goes where and does it vary from squadron to squadron?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Thomas
Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
These are the reference books I own on Essex class carriers. I'm curious if there are any others out there I haven't heard about. After looking at the list, does anyone know of any that I have missed?

The Essex Aircraft Carriers - Andrew Faltum
Warship Perspectives - Essex Class Aircraft Carriers in World War Two - Glenn R. Arnold
Essex Class Aircraft Carriers of the Second World War - Steve Backer
Essex Class Carriers in action - Michael C. Smith
Essex Class Carriers - Alan Raven
Anatomy of the Ship, The Aircraft Carrier Intrepid - John Roberts
Warship Pictorial 22, USS Ticonderoga CV/CVA/CVS-14 - Steve Wiper
United States Navy Camouflage 2 of the WW2 Era, Fleet Carriers - Larry Sowinski & Tom Walkowiak
Osprey New Vanguard - US Navy Aircraft Carriers 1942-45 - Mark Stille
US Aircraft Carriers an Illustrated Design History - Norman Friedman
Essex Class Carriers in WWII, Technical and Operational History - Andrzej Szewczyk, Waldemar Trojca, Zbigniew Kolacha
Warship's Data 4, USS Intrepid (CV 11) - Floating Drydock
Warship's Data 5, USS Yorktown (CV 10) - Floating Drydock

Thanks,
Erik
Post Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Michael Vorrasi wrote:
Top weight was an issue for sure, however, of greater concern, particularly for the late Essexes remaining in active service in the immediate post-war period, was the fact that the outboard 40 quads prevented the ships from clearing the Panama Canal. Many of the early ships went straight into mothballs with all their wartime quad mounts.

While Canal transit was an issue, the two ships in question remained in the Pacific and Antietam was only deactivated in 1949. The outboards had already been removed from both before then. Other signs point to topweight, like the removal of the on-mount shields from the remaining 40MM quads on all of the active Essex's on both sides of the Canal. Topweight was increasing due to the increasing weight of the aircraft and electronics. This was coupled with the removal of the Kamikaze threat and no equivalent threat was in immediate prospect. Something had to go. The Korean War, to some extent, increased the threat level, thus the outboards reappeared, but not in the same numbers as seen on Princeton and also shown by some empty tubs on Bon Homme Richard following her reactivation. (CV-31's on-mount shields had also been removed.) But the outboards could still be removed relatively quickly if the Canal needed to be transited, as on Franklin when she went to the east coast for her 1945 repairs.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Dick J wrote:
Conventional wisdom also said that Boxer never had the outboards, but this photo is from Navsource:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022132.jpg
And by 1947, they are gone:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022134.jpg
Both Boxer and Antietam were in the Pacific en route to the war zone when the war ended. Antietam spent close to a month at Pearl before continuing on. Apparently, like Randolph before them, they had the outboards added prior to seeing their first combat. But once the threat was over the outboards were removed, most likely because of topweight concerns.


Top weight was an issue for sure, however, of greater concern, particularly for the late Essexes remaining in active service in the immediate post-war period, was the fact that the outboard 40 quads prevented the ships from clearing the Panama Canal. Many of the early ships went straight into mothballs with all their wartime quad mounts.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Conventional wisdom also said that Boxer never had the outboards, but this photo is from Navsource:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022132.jpg
And by 1947, they are gone:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022134.jpg
Both Boxer and Antietam were in the Pacific en route to the war zone when the war ended. Antietam spent close to a month at Pearl before continuing on. Apparently, like Randolph before them, they had the outboards added prior to seeing their first combat. But once the threat was over the outboards were removed, most likely because of topweight concerns.
Post Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
MFH wrote:


Yeah I've seen those before. Thanks. Most of the Antietam photos I've found from WWII show the ship in the time frame when she was wearing the Measure 32/17A(2) camouflage, before she deployed to the Pacific.

Erik
Post Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Erik,

Have you seen this pics of Antietam from March to April 1945?

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=42843

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=42845

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=42846

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=42847
Post Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I have been researching CV-36 USS Antietam as she appeared from commissioning on January 28, 1945, through the end of WWII. All the printed material I have in various books, as well as what I've found on the net states that she never received the additional 40mm quad Bofors sponsons that some other Essex class carriers received during refits late in the war. I found this photo and have circled what clearly seems to be the seven 40mm quad mounts that were the standard configuration when beefing up the AA outfit late in the war.

Here is the super-large original version of this photo (without my circles).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 9_1945.jpg

Just figured I'd add to the ever growing body of knowledge on these ships. :smallsmile:

Image

Erik
Post Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I while back I found a pretty good spot for carrier images, many from WW II Essex-class carriers. I tried to post the images, but they were too wide. So, I'm going to try links to them. Here goes...

Here's the main search page: http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/pages/collections/Query.php

Here's some images of USS Wasp (CV-18; late war):

Overall view:
http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=30400

Good view of forward flight deck markings:
http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=30465

A different perspective of the forward flight deck markings after a typhoon!:

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=30447

A good view of her island, radar suite, and forward twin 5"/38 gun mounts:
http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=30517

A detailed view of her forward twin 5"/38 gun mounts:
http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=30419

Just search for any carrier (pretty much), and you'll be rewarded with some pretty interesting images.

There's some GREAT collections as well, like Captain Carlos W. Wieber's photo album (basically) from his time on Essex, a Jumpin' Joe Clifton album (which these came from), and others (Gilreath and Balden are worth checking out).
Post Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:33 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Memphis wrote:
I need help CV-11 Intrepid 1/350 Galery Models. Manufacturer didn't give anything for the hangar deck. Could anybody give me the dimensions of details from trumpeter's kits CV-9, CV-10, CV-13, CV-14? Scale 1/350 or 1/700

Here are plans for Hornet CV-12, post-conversion to an angle-deck carrier:
http://maritime.org/doc/plans/cv12.pdf

Hope this helps.
Post Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I need help CV-11 Intrepid 1/350 Galery Models. Manufacturer didn't give anything for the hangar deck. Could anybody give me the dimensions of details from trumpeter's kits CV-9, CV-10, CV-13, CV-14? Scale 1/350 or 1/700
Post Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Rob, nice photo of Tico. Really looks good. Good luck with your build.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:26 am
  Post subject:  Hangar Catapult use  Reply with quote
Hi, does anybody know whether the hangar catapult required the forward elevator to be up or down in order to be operated?
Thanks
Post Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:26 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Attachment:
TICO_AFT.jpg
TICO_AFT.jpg [ 141.63 KiB | Viewed 495 times ]
OK I found this picture; so yes it needs to be removed :smallsmile:
Post Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I am building a 1944 Ticonderoga from the 1/350 Trumpeter kit and have a question I'm hoping someone could answer: I have plugged the holes for the 40mm tubs and Mk51 directors but am curious about the location marked "X". This is where kit part 18 goes. I am guessing this represents a Clipping Room and should be removed and deleted also. Am I correct or is it something that should be there?
Attachment:
IMG_2621a.JPG
IMG_2621a.JPG [ 72.11 KiB | Viewed 581 times ]
Thanks for any help :smallsmile:
Post Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:39 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thank you, this is exactly the info I needed!
Post Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Vladi wrote:
Hi all,
I have a question concerning whip antennae that replaced the original radio masts on some Essex-class carriers in late WW2 - like those on this photo of USS Bunker Hill off Okinawa seen in the foreground at http://goo.gl/hlqacO . What I cannot figure out of the picture is if these were collapsible like the original radio masts during flight operations? I consider this very likely (in which case the two objects below the antennae platform would perhaps be hydraulic supports responsible for moving them). Does anyone have a photo or other information showing this?



Here you go. This photo is of Bunker Hill CV-17 on 11 May 1945 after the two Kamikazes hit. The Avenger tail wreckage gives some sense of the scale of the antenna's pivot mount and counterweight:

I hope that those who suffered that day found peace.


Attachments:
File comment: Notice the prominent counterweight.
CV-17 whip antenna mount 11 May 1945.jpg
CV-17 whip antenna mount 11 May 1945.jpg [ 106.45 KiB | Viewed 739 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
USS Hornet CV-12 in 1944 still had early island, hangar cat and one flight deck cat, so Trumpeter Essex would be much better as a starting point.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:10 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group