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Topic review - Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm looking at modelling CV-9 in late '43 - early '44.

The level of detail isn't really critical though as it won't be highly visible through the open shutters, but would like to have seen a photo of the original fwd elevator arrangement if there was one around (also the whole subject interests me as I work as an applications engineer in the elevator industry).
Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Rob-UK wrote:
I've just started my build of CV-9, currently in the early stages, but notice the kit centre-line elevators are both up and down position at the same time! As I'm having both elevators up, am having to cut out the elevators in the hangar deck and create an elevator pit with a portion of 2nd Deck. I've referenced photo of Hornet's forward elevator pit (copied below), does anyone know of any photo of the aft elevator? I'm assuming it is much the same, but naturally without the forward end bulkhead.

I also noticed the bulkheads around the forward elevator are painted grey (similar to the outer vertical surfaces), whereas the rest of the internal hangar bulkheads appear to be white.

One more point, I noticed that the 'Anatomy of a ship' book for Intrepid shows two direct acting hydraulic jacks under each elevator, but none visible on the Hornet photo, just elevator ropes and pulleys suggesting indirect acting jacks under the the elevator pit, I'm wondering if different types of centre-line elevators may have been used in different members of the class?

Image

Image

(images courtesy of NavSource.org)


Out of curiosity, what time period are you wanting to depict?

i.e., original? late '43 to early '44? mid '44 to early '45? later 1945?
Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
The photo is described as 'post war', when in mothballs, so that may be the case.

Edit to post: the elevator in the 'post war' photo is still the same now - there's a video on You-Tube of someone's USS Hornet museum trip (in 2016) in which they'e filmed the elevator - it looks identical to the photo, which does suggest the one in the photo is a later model :). So, we can probably conclude the WWII era forward elevator would very likely have been supported on the two direct acting jacks, as the diagrams in the 'Anatomy of a ship' for USS Intrepid.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Which photo pf Hornet's forward Elevator are you using - is it a wartime shot? Post-war the elevators were changed out for different units that coul dhandle the larger and heavier aircraft.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Yes indeed, although hydraulic elevators can sometimes have the cylinders/jacks positioned horizontally below the pit and involve a sheaves and rope arrangement, probably with a 2:1 ratio, to provide the final lift (as is the case with the side elevator), referred to as 'indirect acting' elevator hydraulics.

With regard to the forward elevator, as the photo of USS Hornet's forward pit shows no sign of direct acting jacks directly under the elevator platform, this could be an indirect acting arrangement, also there appears to be strengthened suspension structures in the corners of the elevator platform, with the guide rails in the middle. There is also mention of sheave points on the CV-12 focsle level plans and cut outs in the 2nd deck corresponding with the apparent lifting points on the photo, which also leads me to understand this is the case.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Rob-UK wrote:
raised by rope hoisting points


The elevators were powered by hydraulic pistons and not rope/cable on the Essex class in WWII.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks for these comments. After looking at the Hornet photos of the fwd elevator and a Boxer photo of the aft elevator, combined with a set of Hornet plans and the Anatomy of a ship plans for intrepid, I'm going with the fwd elevator having guides to port & stbd of the elevator on its centre-line and being raised by rope hoisting points on both sides front and rear (ie. four corner points) and the aft elevator with a guide fwd and aft of the elevator positioned offset toward the stbd side and lifted with two direct acting jacks underneath. The aft elevator will be mainly out of site though so am not too concerned, but the fwd one will be quite visible through open shutters so will add a bit more scratch building there.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I haven't found any good "walkaround" photos of the elevator pits. The "best" I've seen is one ship (at least) had horizontal hose racks on the starboard wall. The aft elevator pit also had a secondary elevator (labeled "emergency elevator" in plans) that was brought up to hangar deck level to facilitate aircraft movement. I haven't found any documentation yet that states if this happened automatically whenever the main elevator moved or if there was a secondary control for it. I've seen enough photos where it it is not in view to know that there was at least an override.

Part of the problem is that the insides of these ships changed and were improved as much as the outsides, but of course a hangar bay isn't as sexy as flight decks and operations, so it's harder to find good coverage of areas. I'm still looking for even one shot of the area under the front twin 5" mounts and the associated ammunition chutes as well as starboard side just aft of the aft elevator. I'm sure myself or one of the research mob will stumble on that magical photo right after the book goes to print....

With regards to the elevator well bulkheads, this was an area that evolved over time as well. With the Essexes, they started with Navy Blue, as you can see in this CV-10 shot on Navsource. Later, procedures came about for warming up aircraft inside the hangar at night, and this called for dropping the forward and aft elevators down three feet. This document was written for CVLs but we see the same pattern on Enterprise and the Essex class - note that paragraph six calls for a six-foot thick black band at the top of the elevator well (three feet above the elevator when lowered three feet and three feet below). I don't have a corresponding document for the Essex class to know precisely when it was ordered, but I would guess late 1943 and certainly by 1944.
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I've just started my build of CV-9, currently in the early stages, but notice the kit centre-line elevators are both up and down position at the same time! As I'm having both elevators up, am having to cut out the elevators in the hangar deck and create an elevator pit with a portion of 2nd Deck. I've referenced photo of Hornet's forward elevator pit (copied below), does anyone know of any photo of the aft elevator? I'm assuming it is much the same, but naturally without the forward end bulkhead.

I also noticed the bulkheads around the forward elevator are painted grey (similar to the outer vertical surfaces), whereas the rest of the internal hangar bulkheads appear to be white.

One more point, I noticed that the 'Anatomy of a ship' book for Intrepid shows two direct acting hydraulic jacks under each elevator, but none visible on the Hornet photo, just elevator ropes and pulleys suggesting indirect acting jacks under the the elevator pit, I'm wondering if different types of centre-line elevators may have been used in different members of the class?

Image

Image

(images courtesy of NavSource.org)
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Here's a little detail I stumbled across on my last research trip. The photo caption did not list ship name, but I am fairly certain that this is CV-19 Hancock:

Attachment:
File comment: Probably CV-19 Hancock March 1, 1945
80-G-304022.jpg
80-G-304022.jpg [ 112.15 KiB | Viewed 378 times ]


Note the patched flight deck inboard of the elevator. On January 21, 1945, Hancock had an Avenger suddenly explode after landing, causing over 100 casualties. The deck was repaired and the ship continued fighting until April of that year, but I hadn't seen any photos of the repairs before. The photo was dated March 1, on which date Hancock lists having three F6Fs as "damaged." This is a very vague term and can mean anything from "damaged and later repaired" to "damaged beyond repair and scrapped." We do, however, have this picture of some form of temporary repairs and the patches line up nearly perfectly with the tie-downs in this picture of her distorted hangar bay overhead. I don't have a complete photo showing how close to the island the patch came, but this should be a decent start for builders of the ship (I will be once eventually).
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
The closest the kit depicts would be shakedown cruise, but there are still details that are incorrect (missing flight deck notch, incorrectly shaped flag bridge platform are two that jumped out) so it's hard for me to say that someone who wants a "correct" build is going to find it satisfying without a lot of detail work. The problem with the ships is that no two were ever the same, and no ship was ever the same. Even a fairly complete set like the Pontos ones will have "incorrect" details for any specific ship. That said, they are awesome builds and have a great presence in any display, please be clear that I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from building one!
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Typically the trumpeter kits are vague on precise time frame (i.e. not technically correct for any time frame). I'll need to take a look at a kit to make a more firm determination, something I had promised Angel_Cypher a couple of weekends ago. I'll try and get you an answer this weekend (busy work week).
Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
Depends on when. Randolph had her flight deck length restored before leaving for the Pacific and Tico did not. Tico's forward flight deck was restored before she left for the Pacific, but her after section was not rebuilt until after her [URL=http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/CV14/Kamikaze/PSNSWarReport.html]January 1945 Kamikaze hit. She did not receive the extra quad 40mms until after this same attack. Randolph, on the other hand, was modified at Hunter's Point in January after reaching the Pacific theater and came away with the extra catwalk and starboard sponson quad 40MMs So, after about April 1945 they're pretty close, but before then, there are some substantial differences.


When does the 1/350 Tico from Trumpeter depict her?
Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Pretty sure she had the regular deck by shakedown, but I'm not in a good position to check my notes. Certainly by the time she hit the Pacific Fleet.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
To me, the appeal of Randolph is that 6 color dazzle scheme (7 if you count the white countershading) - just to show off the difference between all the standard USN colors of the day. I believe she had that painted out just after arriving in the Pacific, or maybe before... so the thought of her requiring the short deck to be accurate for this time period is scaring me - since I've already built her! :) But per this photo:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021513.jpg
it looks to me like a full-length deck was in-place at least in November '44, while she was still in dazzle. Dodged that bullet!

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Depends on when. Randolph had her flight deck length restored before leaving for the Pacific and Tico did not. Tico's forward flight deck was restored before she left for the Pacific, but her after section was not rebuilt until after her [URL=http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/CV14/Kamikaze/PSNSWarReport.html]January 1945 Kamikaze hit. She did not receive the extra quad 40mms until after this same attack. Randolph, on the other hand, was modified at Hunter's Point in January after reaching the Pacific theater and came away with the extra catwalk and starboard sponson quad 40MMs So, after about April 1945 they're pretty close, but before then, there are some substantial differences.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
How similar were the Ticonderoga and the Randolph in 1944-45?
Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Thank you! Looking at photos, it seems that the Helldivers are always spotted at the rear of the flight deck, so that makes the most sense. I thank you very much for your time and effort - greatly appreciated!!


You're very welcome!
Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thank you! Looking at photos, it seems that the Helldivers are always spotted at the rear of the flight deck, so that makes the most sense. I thank you very much for your time and effort - greatly appreciated!!
Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Do you know in what order they were spotted on the deck? I'm assuming Hellcats first, Helldivers last?


I've continued to look, and this is not definitive, but it appears that CV-9 often times spotted F6F, TBF/M, then SB2C. I ran across something last night with CV-9/CVG-15 stating that SB2Cs had a longer deck run than TBFs/Ms.

Looking at Hornet's report for 20 June 1944, it states that at 1619, Strike 1A was launched "(15 VF, 8 VT and 14 VB) to attack enemy fleet." Perhaps this means spot was Hellcats, Avengers, & Helldivers.

However, on other days on the same cruise, the order between VT & VB are swapped, so I can't be positive. Maybe there's some photographic (still or motion) evidence of the day's launch... :thinking:
Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:07 pm

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