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Topic review - Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
Dick J, I'm on training wheels man! I haven't made a model in roughly 15 years, and I can't claim to have been very good at it then. I know I have much more patience now. Reading some of this thread and seeing how it has worn some of the folks out on here, that really seem to have a ton of skill, has me a bit intimidated.

If you want to use the CV-14 deck, find out what time frame it is intended for. If the deck is for late '45, it might fit CV-12 - an exact fit for a late '45 CV-12, and for a mid-war CV-12 you should only need to notch it for the two port side 40MM. (Although the CV-14 deck will have the second catapult.) If the CV-14 deck is for either as-commissioned or her '44 deployment config, it will be short and can't be used on CV-12. Personally, I don't use the after market wood decks myself. That is a personal preference and what you want on your model is up to you.

Don't let the ability of others on this board intimidate you. I am a modeler, but I am better at the history and research side than I am at the modeling side. I don't let that stop me. Build the model for yourself. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters ultimately. Even the "super experts" don't get all the details exactly right so don't get too down on yourself. :thumbs_up_1:
Post Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks for the info so far guys!

MartinJQuinn wrote:
Best starting point for a CV-12 in dazzle would be the Essex kit.


Tracy White wrote:
Was it Pontos?


I have the 1/350 C-10. I was looking at the Pontos C-10 full upgrade kit and then just the deck kit for C-9 since it also has decals for C-12. Both of those kits have the darker stain. Then I saw the Artwox 1/350 CV-14 deck kit which is unstained. Don't know if that would fit since it is a long hull.

Should I buy the Trumpeter C-9 and the Pontos C-9 kit, or can I buy the Prontos C-9 kit or the Artwox kit and make a C-12 work?

Dick J, I'm on training wheels man! I haven't made a model in roughly 15 years, and I can't claim to have been very good at it then. I know I have much more patience now. Reading some of this thread and seeing how it has worn some of the folks out on here, that really seem to have a ton of skill, has me a bit intimidated.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
On Ebay, I noticed that the only unstained Essex wood deck is for the CV-14 Ticonderoga. Would that deck fit seeing that CV-14 was a long hull?

To build on what Tracy said, The first two (possibly the first three) long hulls were built with a shorter flightdeck, both fore and aft, to allow the bow and stern quad 40MM to have greater arcs of fire. Those ships also had a large cutout of the flightdeck aft of the forward port side 5" gun gallery that was intended for a third MK-37 director (which was never fitted). The aviators disliked both features, so only Hancock went to war with the short deck and port side cutout. Ticonderoga had the forward end of the deck restored to full length and the big cutout filled out before she deployed. The after end of her flightdeck was lengthened while she received repairs from kamikaze damage. If Randolph ever had the short deck and cutout, they were restored to the full length/width deck within a month of commissioning. All other long hulls commissioned with the full flightdeck.

The early Essex class had the two quad 40MM mounts in the port side galleries for the single 5" guns slightly elevated, also to allow them to have greater arcs of fire. This required small cutouts in the flight deck. Later in the war, when the Essex's had more quad mounts and the need to fire across the deck went away, the quads in those two galleries were lowered to the same level as the 5" mounts, and the deck cutouts were eliminated.

How this applies to your afore-mentioned deck is that you have to know which Tico config the deck fits, and which Hornet config you are trying to fit it to. (Hornet had the two small port side cutouts until her '45 refit/repair.)
Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
The long hulls (including Tico) were launched with shorter flight decks than the short hulls. Tico's was extended to match the length of the other ships before the end of the war. so it depends on whether the company that made that deck did the short deck or the long deck. Was it Pontos?

Also, an addition to the blurb that Martin posted from John. Flight Deck Stain 21 had two different versions. The first was essentially similar to the vertical color 5-O Ocean Gray. It was later revised to match 5-N Navy Blue, but the designation was kept the same. So, if you're doing Hornet very early I would go with the earlier shade, but anything after the middle of 1944 should be the later, darker shade.

The Development of Naval Camouflage 1914 - 1945 Part V: United States Navy - World War II.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
Hi, I am wanting to make a CV-12 Hornet. My grandfather server on her until the end of the war. I bought a trumpeter CV-10 Yorktown since they are both short hulls. Is the CV-10 a kit I can use to make the CV-12 or should I get the CV-9 Essex?

I have also read that the CV-12 used a lighter blue deck stain than the others, does anyone know the actual color?

On Ebay, I noticed that the only unstained Essex wood deck is for the CV-14 Ticonderoga. Would that deck fit seeing that CV-14 was a long hull?

I'll probably have a lot more questions, but those are a good start for now.

Hornet was basically unmodified from her commissioning in 1943 until her refit after her forward flight deck was damaged in 1945. Best starting point for a CV-12 in dazzle would be the Essex kit. I'm building one myself (one of many 1/2 finished projects).

Here is a quote from our resident camouflage expert, John Synder, regarding the flight deck stain:
John Snyder wrote:
USN flight decks in WW2 were not painted, but rather were stained in either Norfolk 250-N Flight Deck Stain (1941-42), or Flight Deck Stain 21 (1943-45 and on into Korea). This stain was subject to fading under the hot sun of the Pacific, and to wear from aircraft handling. It did not stay pristine for long.

I'll leave the length of the flight deck question to more knowledgeable folks.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:02 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi, I am wanting to make a CV-12 Hornet. My grandfather server on her until the end of the war. I bought a trumpeter CV-10 Yorktown since they are both short hulls. Is the CV-10 a kit I can use to make the CV-12 or should I get the CV-9 Essex?

I have also read that the CV-12 used a lighter blue deck stain than the others, does anyone know the actual color?

On Ebay, I noticed that the only unstained Essex wood deck is for the CV-14 Ticonderoga. Would that deck fit seeing that CV-14 was a long hull?

I'll probably have a lot more questions, but those are a good start for now.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
For the second time in a row, we have a WWII Essex class fans thread (this one) and a Cold War Essex class thread.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Does anyone make 1/1800 scale Essex deck decals, specifically for the SCB-125s?

Sigh. Didn't think so.

I'd like to pick up one of Shapeways' SCB-125 Essexes, but not unless I can do justice to that unique pattern on the angle deck. I'm not good at freehanding, and the size is kinda small to try masking or stencils.

I thought about buying the Starfighter 1200 decals, scanning them and laser-printing them out in reduced size on my own decal paper. Would that work?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:39 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Cold-war Essex Class Fans thread, maybe? No context.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm looking at modelling CV-9 in late '43 - early '44.

The level of detail isn't really critical though as it won't be highly visible through the open shutters, but would like to have seen a photo of the original fwd elevator arrangement if there was one around (also the whole subject interests me as I work as an applications engineer in the elevator industry).
Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Rob-UK wrote:
I've just started my build of CV-9, currently in the early stages, but notice the kit centre-line elevators are both up and down position at the same time! As I'm having both elevators up, am having to cut out the elevators in the hangar deck and create an elevator pit with a portion of 2nd Deck. I've referenced photo of Hornet's forward elevator pit (copied below), does anyone know of any photo of the aft elevator? I'm assuming it is much the same, but naturally without the forward end bulkhead.

I also noticed the bulkheads around the forward elevator are painted grey (similar to the outer vertical surfaces), whereas the rest of the internal hangar bulkheads appear to be white.

One more point, I noticed that the 'Anatomy of a ship' book for Intrepid shows two direct acting hydraulic jacks under each elevator, but none visible on the Hornet photo, just elevator ropes and pulleys suggesting indirect acting jacks under the the elevator pit, I'm wondering if different types of centre-line elevators may have been used in different members of the class?

Image

Image

(images courtesy of NavSource.org)


Out of curiosity, what time period are you wanting to depict?

i.e., original? late '43 to early '44? mid '44 to early '45? later 1945?
Post Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
The photo is described as 'post war', when in mothballs, so that may be the case.

Edit to post: the elevator in the 'post war' photo is still the same now - there's a video on You-Tube of someone's USS Hornet museum trip (in 2016) in which they'e filmed the elevator - it looks identical to the photo, which does suggest the one in the photo is a later model :). So, we can probably conclude the WWII era forward elevator would very likely have been supported on the two direct acting jacks, as the diagrams in the 'Anatomy of a ship' for USS Intrepid.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Which photo pf Hornet's forward Elevator are you using - is it a wartime shot? Post-war the elevators were changed out for different units that coul dhandle the larger and heavier aircraft.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Yes indeed, although hydraulic elevators can sometimes have the cylinders/jacks positioned horizontally below the pit and involve a sheaves and rope arrangement, probably with a 2:1 ratio, to provide the final lift (as is the case with the side elevator), referred to as 'indirect acting' elevator hydraulics.

With regard to the forward elevator, as the photo of USS Hornet's forward pit shows no sign of direct acting jacks directly under the elevator platform, this could be an indirect acting arrangement, also there appears to be strengthened suspension structures in the corners of the elevator platform, with the guide rails in the middle. There is also mention of sheave points on the CV-12 focsle level plans and cut outs in the 2nd deck corresponding with the apparent lifting points on the photo, which also leads me to understand this is the case.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Rob-UK wrote:
raised by rope hoisting points


The elevators were powered by hydraulic pistons and not rope/cable on the Essex class in WWII.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks for these comments. After looking at the Hornet photos of the fwd elevator and a Boxer photo of the aft elevator, combined with a set of Hornet plans and the Anatomy of a ship plans for intrepid, I'm going with the fwd elevator having guides to port & stbd of the elevator on its centre-line and being raised by rope hoisting points on both sides front and rear (ie. four corner points) and the aft elevator with a guide fwd and aft of the elevator positioned offset toward the stbd side and lifted with two direct acting jacks underneath. The aft elevator will be mainly out of site though so am not too concerned, but the fwd one will be quite visible through open shutters so will add a bit more scratch building there.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I haven't found any good "walkaround" photos of the elevator pits. The "best" I've seen is one ship (at least) had horizontal hose racks on the starboard wall. The aft elevator pit also had a secondary elevator (labeled "emergency elevator" in plans) that was brought up to hangar deck level to facilitate aircraft movement. I haven't found any documentation yet that states if this happened automatically whenever the main elevator moved or if there was a secondary control for it. I've seen enough photos where it it is not in view to know that there was at least an override.

Part of the problem is that the insides of these ships changed and were improved as much as the outsides, but of course a hangar bay isn't as sexy as flight decks and operations, so it's harder to find good coverage of areas. I'm still looking for even one shot of the area under the front twin 5" mounts and the associated ammunition chutes as well as starboard side just aft of the aft elevator. I'm sure myself or one of the research mob will stumble on that magical photo right after the book goes to print....

With regards to the elevator well bulkheads, this was an area that evolved over time as well. With the Essexes, they started with Navy Blue, as you can see in this CV-10 shot on Navsource. Later, procedures came about for warming up aircraft inside the hangar at night, and this called for dropping the forward and aft elevators down three feet. This document was written for CVLs but we see the same pattern on Enterprise and the Essex class - note that paragraph six calls for a six-foot thick black band at the top of the elevator well (three feet above the elevator when lowered three feet and three feet below). I don't have a corresponding document for the Essex class to know precisely when it was ordered, but I would guess late 1943 and certainly by 1944.
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
I've just started my build of CV-9, currently in the early stages, but notice the kit centre-line elevators are both up and down position at the same time! As I'm having both elevators up, am having to cut out the elevators in the hangar deck and create an elevator pit with a portion of 2nd Deck. I've referenced photo of Hornet's forward elevator pit (copied below), does anyone know of any photo of the aft elevator? I'm assuming it is much the same, but naturally without the forward end bulkhead.

I also noticed the bulkheads around the forward elevator are painted grey (similar to the outer vertical surfaces), whereas the rest of the internal hangar bulkheads appear to be white.

One more point, I noticed that the 'Anatomy of a ship' book for Intrepid shows two direct acting hydraulic jacks under each elevator, but none visible on the Hornet photo, just elevator ropes and pulleys suggesting indirect acting jacks under the the elevator pit, I'm wondering if different types of centre-line elevators may have been used in different members of the class?

Image

Image

(images courtesy of NavSource.org)
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
Here's a little detail I stumbled across on my last research trip. The photo caption did not list ship name, but I am fairly certain that this is CV-19 Hancock:

Attachment:
File comment: Probably CV-19 Hancock March 1, 1945
80-G-304022.jpg
80-G-304022.jpg [ 112.15 KiB | Viewed 463 times ]


Note the patched flight deck inboard of the elevator. On January 21, 1945, Hancock had an Avenger suddenly explode after landing, causing over 100 casualties. The deck was repaired and the ship continued fighting until April of that year, but I hadn't seen any photos of the repairs before. The photo was dated March 1, on which date Hancock lists having three F6Fs as "damaged." This is a very vague term and can mean anything from "damaged and later repaired" to "damaged beyond repair and scrapped." We do, however, have this picture of some form of temporary repairs and the patches line up nearly perfectly with the tie-downs in this picture of her distorted hangar bay overhead. I don't have a complete photo showing how close to the island the patch came, but this should be a decent start for builders of the ship (I will be once eventually).
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all WWII Essex Class Carrier Fans!  Reply with quote
The closest the kit depicts would be shakedown cruise, but there are still details that are incorrect (missing flight deck notch, incorrectly shaped flag bridge platform are two that jumped out) so it's hard for me to say that someone who wants a "correct" build is going to find it satisfying without a lot of detail work. The problem with the ships is that no two were ever the same, and no ship was ever the same. Even a fairly complete set like the Pontos ones will have "incorrect" details for any specific ship. That said, they are awesome builds and have a great presence in any display, please be clear that I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from building one!
Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:32 pm

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