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Topic review - Calling all USN, RN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN, RN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Sorry to be late to the discussion here, but the topic of British CVEs is near and dear to my heart.
When there is reference to "twin 20mm" on a British CVE, they are talking about the British Mk V power operated mounts, rather than the hand-operated twin 20 used by the USN. This mount is identified by a slanted operator's station on one side and the two guns offset to the other side.
https://www.shapeways.com/product/D8HSK43ZA/1-56-twin-20mm-oerlikon-powered-mkv-mount-25-ordm

The mount is really visible on the bow in the first photo that DavidP posted - https://www.navsource.org/archives/03/0302208.jpg. As near as I can tell, when the twins were put in the bow location, they were also mounted around the deck edges, swapping three singles out for two twins. That still left a couple of singles.

Searcher is an odd critter, because she was a member of the earlier "Attacker" class of eleven ships, but she eventually received the weapons upgrades of the later class. The later eleven "Ruler" class were originally configured with eight twin 40mm mounts, while the Attackers started out with only four twin 40s, one on each corner. Again, that photo clearly shows two 40mm mounts forward of the island, so she was updated to have eight twin 40mms. The power operated twin 20s would have been a part of that update also. My guess is that those changes would have happened during a dockyard period in New York between 1 May 44 and 2 July 44.

And like all of the British CVEs, her flight deck was extended before going into British service. A twelve foot extension at the after end is only a whopping 5mm in 1/700 scale, but it is a fun way to differentiate the USN from RN CVEs. There are drawings of the British CVEs, but they were created at the time of handoff from the US yard to the RN, so they don't show the RN changes that were implemented before going into service. I haven't figured out how to tell where the external fuel lines were, as they seem to vary from ship to ship.

And the 4" guns were the US pattern.

I will now stand by for corrections. :-)
Rick
Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN, RN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
are you certain those are twin 20mm mounts & not twin 40mm mounts as there appears to be no shields normally associated with 20mm mounts?
https://www.navsource.org/archives/03/0302208.jpg
https://www.navsource.org/archives/03/0302201.jpg
https://www.navsource.org/archives/03/022.htm


Yes, twin Oerlikons. British power twin Oerlikons were totally different mounts and didn't have the shields that manual Oerlikons had
Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:26 pm
  Post subject:  HMS Searcher  Reply with quote
I'm looking to resurrect my build of HMS Searcher based on the Skywave Bogue model. Looking at the photo of HMS Searcher on wiki, I can see what look like twin 20mm guns on the bow and possibly another one on the port side midships 20mm gallery, just forward of the funnel. I have found a site that claims she had more twin 20mm fitted, which seems plausible given the photo evidence. Does anyone know anything about her 20mm outfit? I believe the photo to be of her in 1944, when she was operating as a 'fighter' carrier with Wildcats. Also, would her 4in single guns be US or British guns?

thanks
Mike
Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
would sheer & body plan work for you?


Certainly wouldn't hurt.
Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Ahoy,

Digging through this thread, I've found that there are some options on the web for finding Nabob plans, but, when looking at them, they do not have a complete set of hull lines included, only partial, with only 7 frames present.

Frame 170, 142, 120, 100, 78, 55 and 13.

That seems...inadequate to build a decent hull form to me.

Does anyone have access to other plans that may have more detail?
Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 7:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Does anyone know if there is a copy of Commencement Bay class Booklet of General Builder's Plans floating around anywhere?
Post Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
[/quote]
Maybe not very respectful , but these really look rather like the proverbial 'garden hose wall mount'. Should not be too difficult to scratch these yourself.
Attachment:
garden-hose-holder-wall-mount.jpg
[/quote]

You're not wrong, that should be fairly easy to scratch.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
If you're just looking for photos I may have some, but you'll need to wait until the weekend for me to have enough time to go looking.


That would be great, thanks. I have some time before I get to that area but as usual for me I tend to get hung up on details that I'm not ready for and it has a tendency to stall my projects. :huh: I'm really just looking for details to busy up the catwalk area on my Bluejacket Gambier Bay build, and what happens to the lines the run vertically up the sides of the hull. Thanks to BobW"s explanation I have a bit of a better understanding of those. It's a great kit but lacks any details in this area so I'm trying to avoid that sparse look that can happen on some scale model builds, we'll see how successful I am. :cool_2:
Post Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
jep1210 wrote:
I found a nice shot of what I believe to be what you were talking about Bob. Just to the left and below the nose of the plane is a vertical tank, but there's only one...maybe the other one is behind it(?). The oddly shaped circles with the hoses draped on them are what I assume Hasegawa is representing in the molding of their 1/350th scale Gambier Bay (see the picture in my post above), and presumably the hose reels you mentioned. This shot is from the NavSource site, and is of CVE 57, U.S.S. Coral Sea. I had seen it in one of many times I combed that site's pictures but thanks to your explanation, I know what I'm looking at.

Image

Maybe not very respectful , but these really look rather like the proverbial 'garden hose wall mount'. Should not be too difficult to scratch these yourself.
Attachment:
garden-hose-holder-wall-mount.jpg
garden-hose-holder-wall-mount.jpg [ 120.9 KiB | Viewed 22817 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:06 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
If you're just looking for photos I may have some, but you'll need to wait until the weekend for me to have enough time to go looking.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
I found a nice shot of what I believe to be what you were talking about Bob. Just to the left and below the nose of the plane is a vertical tank, but there's only one...maybe the other one is behind it(?). The oddly shaped circles with the hoses draped on them are what I assume Hasegawa is representing in the molding of their 1/350th scale Gambier Bay (see the picture in my post above), and presumably the hose reels you mentioned. This shot is from the NavSource site, and is of CVE 57, U.S.S. Coral Sea. I had seen it in one of many times I combed that site's pictures but thanks to your explanation, I know what I'm looking at.

Image
Post Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
This photo was posted to me by Rick Davis. I was doing a diorama for a Vet who was on my Dad's ship, USS CVL 26 Monterey. He was a first loader on 40mm Mount #10. Here is that build:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=76455&hilit=1%2F32+bofors+40mm+oneslim&start=20

The photo was a wide shot that showed the aft half of the ship fitting out. It was blown way up to show the mount. Being a large crop the angles are distorting the size. My guess is 25 or 30 gallons. I'm not really sure, don't know how the system worked .

Hope this Helps,

BobW
Post Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Casablanca CVE fans  Reply with quote
Oh man that's awesome, thanks for the great description and pic. I guess Hasegawa is trying to represent the hose reels (minus the two vertical tanks) in their 1/350 scale CVE 73? I have them circled in red in the picture below? I'm just wondering if I can use that as a reference to determine location and the number of them present. In your picture they look to be about the size of 5 gallon buckets, correct? Also, were they a standard design from ship to ship or did they differ on different classes of ship?

Image
Post Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Casablanca CVE fans  Reply with quote
Found IT


Attachments:
CVLStarboardCloseUp-5Jun430.jpg
CVLStarboardCloseUp-5Jun430.jpg [ 85.57 KiB | Viewed 23060 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Casablanca CVE fans  Reply with quote
jep1210,

Look for two small vertical tanks with piping between them. Also a hose reel. These lines were drained and filled with CO2 when general quarters was called.

Sorry I can't find a shot right now.

BobW
Post Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm
  Post subject:  Calling all Casablanca CVE fans  Reply with quote
I've resurrected my Bluejacket CVE-73 build and want to add as much detail as possible. I've recently found out these pipes that run on the outside of the hull are for the aviation fuel. I can see lines going vertically up to the flight deck area presumably to refuel the planes on the deck, but I can't seem to find any clear pictures of what they look like once they get up to the catwalk. Picture from NavSource. I have the Anatomy Of A Ship: Gambier Bay but there's nothing clearly showing what's up there.

Image
Post Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
The US Navy data sheets for the Bogue class list a flight deck length of 439 feet. The RNRA site you cite states that the added round-down aft was 15 feet long, making an overall length of 454 feet, which seems more probable. The site does not mention any extension forward. If, as I suspect, the site has transposed overall length and flight deck length in its tabulations for the classes, it suggests that the overall flight deck length was 465 feet, but it does not explain how that was arranged.
Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Strictly, this isn't a question about USN escort carriers. I am specifically interested here in the 34 Bogue and Ruler class CVEs that were given to the UK. (I have not read David Wragg's book about CVE's in WWII, and based on reviews, the book has no solid information better than Poolman's books and Friedman's and Terzibaschitsch's works.)

1) Number of 40mm mounts: After much comparison of print and web resources, I am coming to the conclusion that the first batch of 11 CVEs (called Bogue class) served the entire war with only four twin 40mm mounts. This was opposite from the first few USN Bogues that were built with four (either 1.1 or twin 40mm) and were later augmented to eight twin 40mms. It seems the final 23 units of the Ruler class had all eight twin 40mms from birth. Does anybody know for certain that this is not correct about the British units?

2) Twin power operated 20mm guns: I've read somewhere that a number of the British CVEs had their single 20mms replaced by twin power operated 20mms. Later I read at http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/PATROLLER.htm#.XXhwEX97mpo that the twin power operated 20mms were fitted only to the final five ships: Patroller, Puncher, Reaper, Ranee and Thane. I know the Booklet of General Plans for Puncher at HNSA shows single 20mms, but I believe that is because the BGP is a US document, and does not reflect mods made at Burrard's before the RN made the ships operational. Any opinions?

3) Flight deck extension: The Bogue and Prince William class ships appear to have been built with flight decks of 438 ft, and at Burrard's shipyard the RN units were extended to to 492 ft. Or so. I can't find any photo that seems to show an extra 50ft at the after end of RN flight decks. It seems to me that a 50ft extension would overlap the 40mm mounts on the quarterdeck. I see a photo at http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Burrard_Drydock.htm that shows "an extension', but it doesn't seem like 40ft to me. The drawings in the Profile Morskie book for HMS Attacker show the same flight deck length as the US ships.
This is a question only for the Bogue/Ruler classes. I read that the Swordfish needed the longer flight deck because it was not compatible with the US-style catapults.Does anyone know details about the flight deck extension on the RN units?

Any help is appreciated.
Rick Heinbaugh
Post Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
I'd say more like 60 degrees. Not all sections either, the corners on at least some were vertical and the catwalk under the aft flight deck had vertical railings since it was hanging from the overhead. I haven't done a study yet to see if this was an evolving feature.


Attachments:
19LCM ACV-11 F644C3583.jpg
19LCM ACV-11 F644C3583.jpg [ 173.65 KiB | Viewed 15647 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USN Escort Carriers (CVE) fans  Reply with quote
Can anyone confirm (or deny) that the railings on the flightdeck catwalks on the Bogue class (both US and British) CVEs were angled 45 degrees outboard? I have read this somewhere, but have not seen enough photos to be convinced.

Thanks,
Rick
Post Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:03 am

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