The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:21 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
What is the name in the logo in the top left? (hint it's something dot com):
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
I'm sorry, I don't have an accurate date for that photo other than to say summer-fall, 1941. Similar photos with aircraft in the same colors were taken aboard in early October, 1941 (Doyle, pg. 97) so maybe that photo was part of the same group of photos taken at the same time. Therefore, best guess: early October, 1941.

Sara completed the refit that added the large Oerlikon platform on the funnel and the widening of her flight deck at the bow on 28 April 1941 at Bremerton, Washington. Sometime in late October or early November, she entered Puget Sound Navy Yard where her AA defenses were improved. It is not clear exactly what changed during that refit. That work was complete by 2 December 1941 and she sortied to San Diego to pick up her air group. She arrived at San Diego on 7 December 1941. She sortied for Pearl Harbor the next day.

In January, 1942, Sara was struck by a submarine-launched torpedo. Initial repairs were conducted at Pearl Harbor where her 8" turrets were removed and used as part of coastal defenses there where they served in that role until 1948. She received four 5"/38 Mk.32 mounts in their place. She then went on to Puget Sound for permanent repairs and extensive modifications which lasted from February to May 1942. It was at Puget Sound her funnel was cut down to a lower height, her island significantly modified, she gained Mk.37 directors, her hull was blistered, and her flight deck extended aft, among other mods. Sistership Lexington did not survive long enough to receive similar mods, unfortunately.

Below is a well-know photo of sistership Lexington. Note that the large Oerlikon platform on Lexington's funnel is positioned much higher on the funnel than the platform on Saratoga's funnel. This means that to build an accurate Saratoga 1941 model, a Lexington 1941 model kit's funnel is not a good match.

Hope this helps.


Attachments:
CV-2 1941.10 g416362.jpg
CV-2 1941.10 g416362.jpg [ 110.76 KiB | Viewed 14691 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Thank you so much!

Do you have a date on the 1st pic?

Thanks,

Akos
Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Here you go.


Attachments:
CV-3 1941 B31 Saratoga AG.jpg
CV-3 1941 B31 Saratoga AG.jpg [ 69.25 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
CV-3 1941 B43 Sara-1.jpg
CV-3 1941 B43 Sara-1.jpg [ 707.1 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455090-2048x2048.jpg
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455090-2048x2048.jpg [ 187.57 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455091-2048x2048.jpg
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455091-2048x2048.jpg [ 190.7 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455092-2048x2048.jpg
CV-3 1941 gettyimages-50455092-2048x2048.jpg [ 172.39 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
CV-3 1941.12.comment.jpg
CV-3 1941.12.comment.jpg [ 155.77 KiB | Viewed 14742 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
The conversation in this thread got me hooked, and I was wondering what pictures were provided for Model Monkey by Dick J to draw the late 1941 funnel version of SARA. Would it be possible to share those?

Thank you very much!

Akos Gergely
Post Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Most likely a Mk 44 director: https://www.navsource.org/archives/01/57mk.htm
Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
can anyone identify this object? Photo was taken in 1942

Image
Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Pretty late to this thread, but Friedman's US Carriers book noted the fact that by '43/'44, Sara was badly overweight. So much so that the armoured belt was a foot below the waterline despite the blisters, and stability could be critically endangered by as little as one or two near-miss bombs that opened the hull near the waterline. The ship reported displacement as high as 52,500 tons battle ready, of which which BuShips was skeptical. However, even at 48,000+ tons on a nominal design displacement of 36,000 tons, things were clearly not good. BuShips recommended that the CO very carefully manage the voids in the torpedo protection system to avoid critical stability problems in the event of almost any hull damage at all.

In view of this I'd say that even though the keel-to-flight-deck distance would likely not have changed, the waterline-to-flight-deck distance undoubtedly shrank from commissioning to early war to final refits.
Post Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
A still of Sara April '41.
Image
Post Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
I shall stop calling it the armoured belt then, since that isn't actually visible. But in any case that's the blister I'm using as a reference point, which sits well above the waterline as designed but seems mostly submerged in WWII service. I'm satisfied now that this was the case and that what the plans booklet calls "emergency draught" may have been actually quite common.
Post Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
ModelMonkey wrote:
Perhaps this drawing will help. This is Saratoga, port side, after her 1942 refit. Notice that a small blister has been added above the original rounded blister. The armor belt is hidden behind the new blister.

This is a popular misconception. The waterline blister was there on both sisters from commissioning, and they had a matching one to starboard. Sara's small starboard blister was removed in 1942 (unnecessary and counter-productive weight) when the larger blister was fitted.
Post Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Perhaps this drawing will help. This is Saratoga, port side, after her 1942 refit. Notice that a small blister has been added above the original rounded blister. The armor belt is hidden behind the new blister.


Attachments:
Frame 112.jpg
Frame 112.jpg [ 1.74 MiB | Viewed 51725 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:26 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Sorry, 1/700.
Post Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:00 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Exactly. So the ship is routinely sitting at emergency waterline by 1944 if not earlier. If that's the case due to weight creep then that's fine and everything adds up, but in that case maybe it shouldn't be called "emergency" :big_grin:

Incidentally, this makes the Tamiya kit correct despite some initial suspicions I had that the hull was not tall enough. It also means that for a theoretical mating of a donor kit lower hull on design draught with a Tamiya upper hull on emergency, about 2mm extra thickness would need to be added at the waterline.
Post Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
I mean the port side, I'm aware of the assymetry. Compare Page 3 of the plans and how much belt is above the nominal waterline to e.g. these:

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020314e.jpg
https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020398.jpg

Using the most left cross-section on page 18, I'd say the waterline based on those pictures is roughly at the level of the 3rd deck (roof of machinery space), so a draught of over 32 feet.
Post Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Thank you! The reason I wanted this by the way is to check the accuracy of various kits and the possibility of using the lower hull from e.g. a Trumpeter or Meng Lexington on a Tamiya waterline Saratoga.

One thing doesn't add up for me though. In pictures of Saratoga in WWII (and actually, even in the 1930s), often you can only barely see the top of the armoured belt above the water. In some cases with the ship at lighter load, you can see the black boot stripe is painted over the armoured belt except for the chamfer right at the top. The "design draught" of about 28 feet as drawn on those general arrangement plans is much lower on the ship than this, with a decent height of armoured belt visible. This makes me think this draught was only achieved on trials, or exists purely to declare treaty displacement and the ships quickly sat lower than this. Trumpeter use this value for the upper/lower hull split on their kits but it makes them look too tall when built waterline.

Now, scaling off those plans, for the armour belt to be almost completely below the waterline as in pictures, Saratoga would need to exceed the 32 foot "emergency draught" stated on the general plans booklet.

What am I missing?
Post Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
What is the total depth of Saratoga's hull, keel to flight deck? How much did her draugh change with her WWII refits?

Specifically, I would like to know draught and corresponding freeboard to the flight deck in 1942 and 1944 configurations.
Post Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Great detail shots of Saratoga - bristling with 40mm guns - arriving in San Francisco in September 1945.

https://youtu.be/QDkeNbIOioA
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
SQUADRON 12 BOMBS NAURU; PLANES TAKE OFF USS SARATOGA FOR TARAWA RAID

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/75938#.X94m4BKWAgg.link

You'll have to download the video to watch. The photographer sucked - lots of the footage is out of focus - but at the end, some interesting shots of her bow cutting through the sea, where you can see the paint worn away from the wave action.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:26 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
Who can help? What is this on 5/38 gun?


Attachments:
CV-3.jpg
CV-3.jpg [ 288.05 KiB | Viewed 10822 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:

From Navsource:
[/quote]

Thanks

Who can help with landing lights?
Plans of Saratoga 1944 indicates the presence of landing lights. They are not on plans of 1945.
But I don't find the landing lights in the photos from may 1942 to 1944. Were they even in 1944?


Attachments:
Landing Lights.jpg
Landing Lights.jpg [ 52.19 KiB | Viewed 11005 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:45 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group