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Topic review - Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans
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  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
sas1975kr wrote:
Dick J wrote:
I don't know of a source for those original MK-19's.


Campbell, John. Naval Weapons of World War Two, p.109?


I think he meant there is no source of aftermarket model parts of the original non enclosed MK 19 directors as seen on the Northampton class CA’s and Lexington class CV’s in the early thirties.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:20 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Dick J wrote:
I don't know of a source for those original MK-19's.


Campbell, John. Naval Weapons of World War Two, p.109?
Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Hello. Who can help with boats?

As I understood the Booklet of General Plans 26 March 1936 contains a number of errors

Left side. Starting from the stern. In the photo before 1936:

-50 ft motor launch on main deck

beside funnel
-40 ft motor boat
-40 ft motor boat
-40 ft motor launch

beside superstructure
-two 26 ft motor whale boats

after 1937:

-50 ft motor launch on main deck

beside funnel
-40 ft motor boat
-40 ft motor boat
-40 ft motor boat ????
-40 ft motor launch at flight deck level

beside superstructure
-two 26ft motor whale boats

all boat and launch as in http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/pdf/boatsca ... 2-1955.pdf

Am I right or not?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:01 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Dick -
Thanks. Of course I was hoping for a different answer. But thanks for the help.
John
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Unfortunately, the MK-19's you need are the ones in the Northampton photo, but sitting in a tub. The only MK-19's I saw on the Model Monkey site were the modified (combined) ones I mentioned previously, as seen in this photo of the Salt Lake City (above the open bridge): http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/025/0402523.jpg
These modified units, which were about the size of the later MK-37's, were carried by the Pensacola's, the Northampton's and the Pearl Harbor battle line. They were not on the Lexington. They were essentially the original Mk-19 main director mounted in a rotating box shared with a new rangefinder (wider base and without the periscope). I don't know of a source for those original MK-19's.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Dick -
Thanks, that answers most of my questions.
The "box structure" I refer to looks like the back side of an enclosed director - sort of like a Mk37, but not really a Mk37 since LEX had none - just a similar shape. Model Monkey hmakes a Mk19 (enclosed) director in his non-Shapeways catalogue and it kinda looked to me like the back side of that.
That said, looking at page 99 of Stern, there is a picture of the optical portion of the Mk19 which is missing in your NORTHAMPTON photo. Looking back carefully at a number of photos of LEX, including the last good picture before the explosions and a couple with the wisps of smoke, the vertical periscope can be seen in the four locations you mention. Hadn't really seen that before. But the rest of the Mk19 system seems to be enclosed in splinter shields or something similar. So I am wondering if the non-optical portion of the MK19 on LEX after the war started looks like the Model Monkey Mk19 director. I sure hope so from a modeling perspective. Duplicating the director in your NORTHAMPTON photo would be a challenge.
Thanks for helping me home in.
John
Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
The Lexingtons were built with 4 sets of MK-19 directors. I use the word "sets" because there were 2 components to each set. The main part of the director may be seen in this shot of Northampton.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/026/0402626.jpg
The second element was a rangefinder (with a periscope) that was later fitted on that vacant rounded protrusion just aft of Northampton's MK-19 main element. Lexington carried these sets, unmodified, to the end. 2 sets were on the fore top with the main elements toward the center and the rangefinders outboard, on the "wings" of the top. The other 2 sets were on the top platform on the back side of the stack. The MK-19 main elements were closer to the stack with the rangefinders aft of them. There were plans to combine the elements, as was done on the Northamptons and Pensacolas, but that was never done on Lex. Later plans to use MK-33 directors were also not implemented. Only Saratoga got upgraded directors, MK-37's in 1942.

None of Lexington's 1.1's had directors. The only MK-3 (FC) radar was installed on the former 8" control station above and behind the big rangefinder. I am not sure what you are referencing when you talk about the "box structure".
Post Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:57 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Can someone pass along the current thinking about the locations of the various components of the gun fire control systems as LEX left PH in April '42.
For the 5"/25 mounts, how many directors and what type were there, and where were they physically located? (I assume one director for each group of three.) But I know there is discussion including here about replacing the removed 8" directors after the turrets themselves were removed and putting 5" director(s) in their place. So, were there something like two MK19 directors placed on the upper platform where the two-part 8" directors were? To me, the picture Tracy posted above looks like at least one box structure is located on that platform nearest to the camera (toward the outer platform edge) that could be a director like a Mk19. If one or more 5" directors were in that location, one to port and one to starboard, where there two more aft of the stack on one of the platforms there?
I think I read somewhere that all the quad 1.1" mounts were unpowered, would that also mean none of them had directors either at that time. If that's not correct, where were the 1.1" directors located physically.
Finally, I do agree there seems to be a radar antenna above the roof of the Flag Plot and aft of the optical rangefinder on the FP roof. Is that the only FC radar antenna (assuming it is an FC radar.
Finally, can any post pictures of the Mk16 and Mk19 gun directors? I have been unable to get much in the way of pictures of the various late-peace / early-war gun directors. I get lots of Mk33 and later info, or Cold War stuff, but not this era.
I know LEX is still a mystery in some areas even after the information we've seen in the past few years, so I'm OK with an educated quess. I put LEX aside as a model project some years back when there was still some significant questions as to what the bridge structure looked like. I took my best swing - which actually turned out to be really close - but held off actually cementing things together and onto the model knowing full well that would be when pictures would show up showing me to be way wrong. I am laying out a plan to get back on that horse and want to clarify a few things with the collective wisdom here.
John
Post Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
My guess is no false bow wave - she has it in October 1941 on the way out of San Diego, but note that the paint on her hull is badly chalked and probably washed away (the 5-D they were using at the time was a mixture of pre-war #5 gray and black, which lead to adhesion problems). As the false bow wave was effectively obsolete at that time I'm pretty sure when she repainted they would have left it off.

Just a guess though.
Post Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Dang! Maybe I'll just slap on a PE CXAM-1 and skip the turrettop AA and do the wartime scheme. I don't have any yellow paint anyway. Do we know if she had the MS-5 bow wave in the month between getting F4Fs and removal of the 8" turrets?
Post Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
One problem you're going to have is that her air group had F2A Buffalos until late January, 1942. I have one sort-of in progress (messed up the masking of the deck lines and haven't had the interest in stripping everything on the flight deck down and starting over on the yellow) and decided that it's "lexington-ish" I was just going to do a pre-war paint scheme since it's prettier any way and not worry about the details so much.
Post Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
I'm currently working on Meng's non-scale cartoon Lexington, and am wondering (as silly as it may seem for the subject type) what paint schemes are possible/likely with it.

It has the 8" guns without AA guns on top of them, but has the AA platform around the funnel. It comes with F4F, SBD, and TBD aircraft. If it weren't for the aircraft, it'd put it squarely in the late-1930s, 1940 period, and the suggested peacetime paint scheme (though they have you use deck blue instead of mahogany) certainly suggest so. But were those aircraft embarked at all during this period? If not, what would be some of the more obvious structural changes that'll have to be done to "allow" the use of the included aircraft?


Attachments:
WIN_20181230_15_07_22_Pro.jpg
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Actually, I have my own scan of the same photo and am going to post it here as the navigation level isn't covered in text:

Attachment:
PHS-101.jpg
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This photo is dated April 13. She reports embarking 14 F2As of VMF-311 for transportation to NAS Palmyra on April 14 and standing out about 0900 on April 15.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Here's the post & picture Dick's referencing.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
The photo I find most useful for the flag bridge config is the James Noblin photo on page 37 of this thread. Some have claimed that the mod was incomplete when this photo was taken, and so does not show the actual final layout. The problem with that notion is that the photo shows no scaffolding or any other indication of ongoing work, and it was dated only one day before she set sail for the Coral Sea. So I believe that photo really does show the final bridge config.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
lvsquarerigger wrote:
This is the cropped and lightened photo.

James

This photo I zoomed in on on my computer even closer and it showed something in the design. Can you take this photo and zoom in closer to the flag bridge and post it here?
Post Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:40 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
This is the cropped and lightened photo.

James


Attachments:
NH 76560a.jpg
NH 76560a.jpg [ 180.65 KiB | Viewed 196 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:20 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
lvsquarerigger wrote:
I took the high res photo of Lex after the first torpedo attack and cropped and lightened it. With the higher exposure you can see the front of the flag bridge cabin and the walkway around the front. That was how I had done mine but after the pics here I started to change it so the cabin went all the way forward. Now it seems I had done it right and now have to do it over again. Imagine that? :smallsmile:

James


I down loaded this photo on windows 10 and zoomed in on the flag bridge area and it turned out real good but I do not know how to post it. Can you do the same and post?
Post Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
I haven't been here for awhile, so simply checked in to see what's new. The pictures from the dive of the wreck have certainly answered some hoary old unfathomables (e.g. 1.1" gun tubs square ended or round).

My particular interest is gunnery control and all the paraphernalia that goes with it. So I have been endlessly puzzled to see models produced (from the Trumpeter 1/700 and 1/350 kits) where the control position (formerly for the 8-inch battery) below the foretop has been completely omitted. Easy assumption to make of course, given it's difficult to see in the available photos taken after the final refit. However, I've always believed it was retained because in the starboard view of the ship trimmed by the bow at Coral Sea you can just discern the sloping hood above the folded down weather shields for the director. It's the small lump below the foretop containing the 5-inch directors and rangefinders/altimeters.

Now we have a close-up photo of the wreck looking down on the roof of the control position. And there we have the hexagonal aperture in the roof, the folded down wind shields (blown backwards), and inside is the pedestal for the director. Maybe the director was demolished. Maybe it had been removed. Page 37 of Warship Pictorial 33 features a small drawing top left close to the spine of the book which is a plan of the control position. The caption reads: TEMP GUN DIRECTOR INSTALLATION SEE REF. R. Ref R reads FOUNDATION FOR MK16 MOD2 GUN DIRECTOR (TEMP DIR INSTALLATION). The Mk16 was a secondary battery director in capital ships and the main battery director for light cruisers and destroyers. It was originally used in Omaha class cruisers, Colorado class battleships and in rebuilt battleships prior to the New Mexico class. This information from page 193 Naval Firepower by Norman Friedman. Lexington was originally fitted with a Mk 18 director in this position for 8-inch fire control (together with another on the lower platform abaft the funnel). So the conclusion is that when the 8-inch armament was removed, the Mk 18 director was replaced (intended temporarily) with a Mk 16 director for low-angle control of the 5-inch battery. The Mk 16 was for surface fire control only, not anti-aircraft (high angle) fire.

The plan is also annotated ANT [Antenna] PEDESTAL POSITION TRAIN DRIVE UNITS ABOVE REF. P. Ref P states TEMP COMPOSITE FC RADAR ANT ELEV. AND TRAIN MOUNT. So the control position would have been used for training and elevating the fire control radar on the forward top of the control position, whether or not the director was in place.
Post Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:19 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans  Reply with quote
Here is a link to the film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xPeILtIcGQ
Post Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:14 am

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