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Topic review - Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
John W. wrote:
Looking at this picture, it seems to be the #3 1.1" mount - the structure on the right is the clipping room structure and the flight deck crane is just to the left of the clipping room. It looks as though the circular splinter shield is really only about half the diameter - the portion in the direction of the flight deck open space. I have seen pictures of ENTERPRISE with this configuration, so I am not suggesting it was blown away, but rather it is just not there intentionally. Looking at the tray for the ammo clips to the left in the picture, it looks as if the tray is just neatly terminated there with a rounded off end, not that it was ripped away. On the other hand I have the USN / Shipyard plans that show (apparently) the splinter ring completely encircles the mount.
So my question is: was the splinter shield / tub like this from the time she left Norfolk after all the post-commissioning mods were done there? Or was she modified to this configuration later, say when the hangar deck cats were removed and the fifth 1.1" mount put on the bow bandstand? I am modeling the Raid, so that's really what I am most interested in nailing down. I'm not sure how leaving off that section of shielding accomplished much that was positive. It would seem to make the gun crew more vulnerable to flight deck hazards from landing crashes. But what do I know?

The "open-backed" tub was configured that way at Midway. So it was probably that way from the first installation of the tubs.

John W. wrote:
Just as an observation, I am not sure how HORNET could have lost 50 meters of her stern based on the pictures. If the #7 5" mount is correctly identified by Fred (and I believe it is), there is not much ship aft of that 5" gallery - maybe 50', literally the stern to the back of the #3 elevator structure. The sidescan sonar image makes it appear the rear half or so of the flight deck was stripped off, but that may be an illusion from the angle of the scan which could put the flight deck in a "shadow" of the sonar beam.
Great pictures!

The "'big-picture" sonar scan shows both the main section and the stern. Both were explored and photographed. Considering how many torpedoes hit that area, the break point aft of the #2 elevator is understandable.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Rod Dickson wrote:
For Rick Davis. Not just another International Harvester ... :lol:

When I saw it I thought "WTF!"


Looking at this picture, it seems to be the #3 1.1" mount - the structure on the right is the clipping room structure and the flight deck crane is just to the left of the clipping room. It looks as though the circular splinter shield is really only about half the diameter - the portion in the direction of the flight deck open space. I have seen pictures of ENTERPRISE with this configuration, so I am not suggesting it was blown away, but rather it is just not there intentionally. Looking at the tray for the ammo clips to the left in the picture, it looks as if the tray is just neatly terminated there with a rounded off end, not that it was ripped away. On the other hand I have the USN / Shipyard plans that show (apparently) the splinter ring completely encircles the mount.
So my question is: was the splinter shield / tub like this from the time she left Norfolk after all the post-commissioning mods were done there? Or was she modified to this configuration later, say when the hangar deck cats were removed and the fifth 1.1" mount put on the bow bandstand? I am modeling the Raid, so that's really what I am most interested in nailing down. I'm not sure how leaving off that section of shielding accomplished much that was positive. It would seem to make the gun crew more vulnerable to flight deck hazards from landing crashes. But what do I know?

Just as an observation, I am not sure how HORNET could have lost 50 meters of her stern based on the pictures. If the #7 5" mount is correctly identified by Fred (and I believe it is), there is not much ship aft of that 5" gallery - maybe 50', literally the stern to the back of the #3 elevator structure. The sidescan sonar image makes it appear the rear half or so of the flight deck was stripped off, but that may be an illusion from the angle of the scan which could put the flight deck in a "shadow" of the sonar beam.
Great pictures!
Post Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Thanks, Rick. Well I got an e:mail in to Petrel see if they say anything.
I have heard of smaller machine guns used from landing craft on sea transports to backseaters of dive bombers on the flight deck when under air attack.

I wish I had a larger picture of HORNET during this action-but what I have gets too pix-elated when I zoom in to 1.1 areas
Post Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:37 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
I believe all USN ships had "Small Arms" armories onboard. Destroyers had small quantities of such weapons. The big ships like battleships had large quantities including weapons for "Landing Parties". From some accounts I have read, particularly during the Solomons campaign, there is mention of use of 50-cal MGs onboard ships well after 50-cal water-cooled MGs had been replaced by 20-mm guns to supplant the AA firepower. ALL SHIPS were wanting MORE AA firepower against Japanese airplanes. How effect they were as AA weapons, is not clear, but whoever manned them likely felt better knowing that they could shoot at the enemy. Witness accounts say that USS JUNEAU (CL-52) had 50-cal MGs in use during her last battle. These air-cooled USMC/US Army type guns, could be utilized almost anywhere on the ship with room to manuever the gun (hopefully the gun crew didn't shoot into the ship in the process). During the late war period as USN ships got closer to Japan, the Japanese released floating mines and escorting destroyers noted frequently in War Diaries "shooting" mines to explode them. Some of the SUMNER class Fast Minelayers (DM), were actually authorized EXTRA 50-cal MGs for that purpose. Whether that is the case here, I don't know.

Also, it could be as noted, from a IJN aircraft that hit USS HORNET's bridge?

A cool find Rod.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
For Rick Davis. Not just another International Harvester ... :lol:

When I saw it I thought "WTF!"


Attachments:
aft 1.1 tub.jpg
aft 1.1 tub.jpg [ 65.22 KiB | Viewed 322 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
I changed the contrast and brightness on the stills in the 0257-0301 range in my first post above.

They are the lower and middle levels of the forward end of the island.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Footage of the island recently showed up here-- https://www.facebook.com/15107522489602 ... 68?sfns=mo

Truly amazing how the Navy Blue on Hornet is very close to that on the port hull of Juneau and all of the other ships with MS 12 Mod these fine folks have found. And now we have real samples of both shades of grey on the island to try to match after 76 years of wear and tear.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Based on the diagrams in Warships Battle Damage 1 and camo patterns for the recent batch of photos--

The photo of the starboard hangar deck is at the front end of the most forward opening on that side based on the angled upper corners.

The hangar deck photo with 2 light spots in the camo appears to match the aft end of the port side boat pod. The camo pattern is close but not a perfect match for the photos I have, however both the diagram and photos suggest that was the only part of the hangar deck with that type of curve in it. Starboard side pattern in that area is not close to the one in the photo.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
This link on M/V Petrel - Allen's Facebook has thirteen images, some are new, and provides the location of the various images ...

... https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... _tn__=HH-R ...
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:57 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans//WRECK PHOTOS  Reply with quote
Using mostly the camo patterns I have matched some of the CBS footage/photos to locations as follows--

5" gun section shown with red primer on the bulkhead and hull number--Port bow
Vertical plate at 0257-0301 that looks like where the liferafts were--unknown that plate did not have a ladder on L side per photos. Still trying to figure that one out.
0305--#2 1.1 and director tower
0319--Guessing one of the forward 5" gun tubs. No pattern visible due to lighting. Both aft tubs had no camo on the bulkheads based on photos I have. Both forward ones did.
0332--Hull number port bow perfect match for camo pattern.
0355--0419--Starboard aft gun tub. Rich Nowatzki emailed me that he saw a bomb hit that position after he was in the water and that one of the 2 guns was blown off the ship. He did not know until he saw this footage which gun it was. His gun 7 is still there, my father's gun 5 was blown off.
0437/0458--F4F4 side number placement for the benefit of model builders.
0448--Appears to be 1.1 #1.
0500--Starboard bow 5" gun
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053


Based on the photos. I wonder who will make an aftermarket deck tractor for Hornet.
:cool_2:
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:37 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
pbudzik wrote:


So her hull plates were in pretty small sectioned plates? Going to be a pain in the ass to simulate that on the 1/200 Hornet hull.....
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053

As noted in the main forum, here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=177009&p=761268#p761268
Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:02 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Today, RV Petrel's team announced they have found the wreck of USS Hornet.

https://news.usni.org/2019/02/12/41053
Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
The plating diagram pdf can be found here ...

http://paulbudzik.com/current-projects/Enterprise%20Scratch/Hull%20Plating.pdf

Paul

Image
Post Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Tom -
The armor belts are visible enough in photos from a medium distance (400 Yds, say) that I think they should be applied to 1/350th models, probably even 1/700. In this thread, on page 29, you can see the belts as I applied them to my HORNET in 1/350. You can also see on a later page how they look when the hull is painted. The top edge of the belt is 4", or about 0.011 in 1/200 and it tapers to about 2.5" at its bottom. I used either .005 or .010 strip on mine (I forget which). Note that the belt looks like a rectangle when viewed directly from the side at the height of the waterline. But to look that way the belt is much wider at the stern because it rolls under the waterline toward the ship's centerline as it gets closer to the outer prop shaft supports. It is nearly twice as wide there at the stern as it is on the bow or two thirds of the way along the side before it starts to roll under. I used two strips of plastic, one the same width for the full length of the belt. A second roughly triangular piece (the hypotenuse actually is a broad concave curve) for the last 1/4 or so of the length where the belt rolls under. If you have the MD Silver book of plans, there are drawings that show the details. The top of the armor belt coincides with the 4th deck, which is the armored deck (not the hangar or main deck).
External armor belts are characteristic of this class and I think they should be included in most reasonable scales. I also went to the effort of doing the shell plating strakes which are also visible - though some are disinclined to go that far for their own reasons. Your call on both features. This topic is discussed earlier in this same CV-8 thread for your further education and amusement depending upon where you personally fit with you modeling views.
John
Post Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:42 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
How pronounced was the armor belt? Does it need to be added to the smooth sided 1/200 hull? I was planning on doing the tape & paint method to add hull plating detail to the hull. Is there any online diagrams that give an outline of how the hull plating was laid out?
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Trumpeter’s painting instructions for the 1/200 kit show some of the non-flightdeck external steel decks to be the same ghost grey as the hull. I’m guessing this is in error and all the steel decking was deck blue?
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Here is what I have involving either the hangar or the deck railings around the elevator on the Hornet. I would also recommend looking at the "Warship Pictorial #44 Yorktown" as there are 3-4 pictures in there that are great of CV-5. I had a photo somewhere that I can not find at the moment which showed planes in the hangar with at least one plane and several spare parts hanging from the support beams on the overhead.

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Post Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:48 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans  Reply with quote
Max -
Not entirely true. At least on the YORKTOWNs, when the elevators are at flight deck level a secondary elevator bridges part of the elevator pit - about a third of the width - so that men and equipment could pass across it from fore to aft. Especially for the aft (#3) elevator, this allowed access to storage space behind the elevator and on the wall of the elevator shaft. On that same after wall, there was a door providing access to the fantail.
Tracy White posted a couple of pix in one of the CASF threads - one of the YORKTOWN class threads. I don't remember which of the three it was, but there are a number of pix in all three of those threads that show a lot of hangar deck details including the hangar deck elevator wells.
John
Post Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:33 am

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