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Topic review - Calling all IJN Carrier fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan K wrote:
Just to put this point to bed - I didn't note the specific page in Shattered Sword, but three eyewitness survivors are cited as to identifying the object in question as clearly being the forward elevator.


One more eyewitness from the USN side:

Lt jg Norman Kleiss was interviewed about his bombing of the Hiryu and in regard to his Bomb hitting the edge of the forward elevator and blowing it up and out toward the island, was recorded as saying this :
"... like a taco, rolled it back on top of itself."

For those interested in a possible Dio...

Seems like these 2 photos do show it bent almost in half and resting just forward of the island. The 2 bent segments of the elevator supporting the entire assm to keep it upright. I do not believe it shifted in any way between the taking of the two known photos. The different 'Look" of the 2 photos is due to reflections of portions of the elevator and other debris in my opinion.


Try making a cutout of the elevator in the same scale as your model. Bend it almost in half and place it on the deck. It does not need to lean against the island to remain upright. It does, however, seem to lean in toward the island. Note that the white deck stripe is visible on a section of the elevator and can give you a point of reference.


My take on this photo:


Attachments:
Hiryu forward elevator diagram.jpg
Hiryu forward elevator diagram.jpg [ 91.45 KiB | Viewed 619 times ]
Post Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
I'm really glad some of you folks have ability to really dig into these photos.

TF48, DanK, KUDO's.

I'm really impressed the elevator impregnated itself in the flight deck to begin with.
What are the chances??

I dont know Japanese Carriers, so there's nothing holding the elevator up on the port side
in the bow shot, correct??

Thanks,

Paul
Post Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Just to put this point to bed - I didn't note the specific page in Shattered Sword, but three eyewitness survivors are cited as to identifying the object in question as clearly being the forward elevator.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
[quote=

But what would the survivors from the ship who say it was the elevator really know.
:thumbs_up_1:[/quote]


They might say "...going up"!

Nino
Post Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Guest wrote:
And you base you unequivocal assertion on what?

I don't know, maybe all the previous posts that seem to indicate it's the elevator?


But what would the survivors from the ship who say it was the elevator really know. I'm sure "guest" knows more than anyone else.

Sorry about being snippy, but this is getting old.
:thumbs_up_1:
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
No, the item in front of the island is the forward elevator.

And you base you unequivocal assertion on what?

I don't know, maybe all the previous posts that seem to indicate it's the elevator?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:28 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
ijnfleetadmiral wrote:
No, the item in front of the island is the forward elevator.

And you base you unequivocal assertion on what?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
No, the item in front of the island is the forward elevator.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:01 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
I think it's the elevator and it has simply fallen over. It's possible that the elevator folded when it was blown out, which would explain why it looks larger in one photo. The direction of the smoke is significant, too, because the swells will come in the direction of the wind. That means Hiryu was rocking sideways between troughs and swells, which would also affect the stability of the elevator.

I can understand crew members rigging a sail on one of the ship's boats. They could have laid it out on deck before putting it on the boat, but even the most novice sailor would know that a sail that small would have no effect of a ship of that size.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:53 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Well, I've given my view.

Gonna have to move this portion of the thread to the Soryu/Hiryu CASF at some point.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Quote:
I just talked to a friend of mine who said he read in a book years ago that some of the Japanese survivors raised a makeshift sail on the deck of the Hiryu after they were left abandoned...??? Could that be the object?


With all due respect, that's not a makeshift sail.


Great job on colorizing the photos, Matt.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Another great example of this forum and getting people to look at things differently. Seen these pictures a million times, never noticed that the Elevator moved between pictures. Another thing to call out, one would assume that these pictures were mere seconds apart or perhaps a minute, but the amount of smoke blowing across the Bridge between the two. We can see there is a good breeze blowing across by looking at the angle of the smoke and the water, but I doubt that much smoke would have moved clear of the frame within a few minutes. Here is a feeble attempt to help break down the images. The bow on shot is clear that we are looking at the deck side of the Elevator. The broadside shot is tough to tell if we are looking at the deck side or the underside. We see there is something twisted back alongside the island, so my guess is we are looking at the underside of the elevator in this shot. Somewhere between the broadside shot being taken and then the Bow on, the remainder of the Elevator has fallen across the deck.

Attachment:
Hiryu Broadside.jpg
Hiryu Broadside.jpg [ 148.21 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]

Attachment:
Hiryu Bow on.jpg
Hiryu Bow on.jpg [ 219.41 KiB | Viewed 828 times ]



FWIW,

Matt
Post Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Why can't these pics be as clear as the Zuiho sinking...???
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:39 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
My two cents -

I don't agree that it's an optical illusion. In the beam photo, the corner of the elevator clearly rises above the the top of the bridge. Which makes sense, because her forward elevator was 16m/52ft wide,(and we know that the full width is intact from both photos and the direction of the one stripe), while the bridge was four decks high, approx. 40 ft.

In the bow on shot, that elevator is no longer standing on is side. The highest point is perhaps half the height of the bridge. I believe it fell over.


Going back to my observation about the forward elevator likely being bisected by the explosion that tore her out of the well (which is also adding to the confusion):

All elevator platforms had had substructures at each corner that were reinforced to hold a set of guides that wrapped around a vertical rail at each corner in the elevator well. The first photo shows what is probably Hiru's aft elevator sitting on her flight deck before installation. The red arrow points to one such substructure. You can see another one to its left under the far corner, and the one forward is just out of view.

Now, looking at the elevator in the starboard beam view, we can again see one such substructure. And we can see the full width of the elevator on the vertical axis. However, there's not enough platform left to the right to see what would have been the next corner. This is a large fragment, not the entire elevator.


Attachments:
Elevator guide, Hiryu fitting out at Yokosuka, Feb 2, 1939 crop.jpg
Elevator guide, Hiryu fitting out at Yokosuka, Feb 2, 1939 crop.jpg [ 355.57 KiB | Viewed 585 times ]
elevator guide, Hiryu, Midway, June 5, 1942,.jpg
elevator guide, Hiryu, Midway, June 5, 1942,.jpg [ 214.2 KiB | Viewed 585 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Captain Morgan wrote:
Guest wrote:
Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???


That's an optical illusion because you are looking from ahead and above the ship

Maybe...but I have taken that into account and in the side view there is not a lot of distance between the object and the bridge. Based on my geometry, either the angle would have to be much higher (height that the pic was taken) or the distance between the object and the bridge would have to be much greater to account for such a difference in height. In addition, logic tells me that the two pictures were most likely taken by the same aircraft most likely only minutes apart, as I don't think a recon aircraft would be loitering in that area for very long as aircraft on both sides were still very active.
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
One thing to remember is the Japanese carriers had two level hangers. The elevator was more box like since I think they had two elevator platforms as can be seen from pictures of Kaga on the way to Pearl Harbor. I read this was how Royal Navy two hanger elevators were in the early carrier designs also. It required several moves to take an aircraft from the lower hanger to the flight deck.

it worked like this:
1. Load aircraft on lower platform.
2. Raise aircraft to upper hanger deck
3. Take aircraft off lower platform
4. Lower elevator so upper platform is on upper hanger deck.
5. Load aircraft on upper elevator platform.
6. Raise elevator platform to flight deck.

The RN was not happy on how long it took for this so they tended to keep most aircraft in the upper hanger.
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Ok, I am almost certain that I can see the platform in the side shot of the ship and as Dan K alluded earlier it does look like an open book standing on edge with the binding pointing toward the bow and the open part facing the bridge. I have to say that I firmly believe the structure shifted at some point between the images to a more flat position. I am almost certain that it is not in the same position in both images.
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???


That's an optical illusion because you are looking from ahead and above the ship
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Maybe this helps.


Attachments:
Hiryu elevator after blown out of well stbd side view.jpg
Hiryu elevator after blown out of well stbd side view.jpg [ 212.39 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]
Hiryu elevator after blown out of well view from forward.jpg
Hiryu elevator after blown out of well view from forward.jpg [ 344.08 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:44 am

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