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Topic review - Calling all IJN Carrier fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
1/2000 IJN Carriers

More:
https://cyberboogie.wixsite.com/aircraf ... by-side-10


Attachments:
File comment: wii
WII Japanese.jpg
WII Japanese.jpg [ 32.56 KiB | Viewed 4116 times ]
Post Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
You are most welcome.

By coincidence, I happen to be reading about these CVE's in the new Lengerer book (pricey, but full of info: https://daviddoylebooks.com/nonus-ships ... y-volume-2 ). One point is that these ships were all equipped with arrestor cables, contrary to some reports.

Two other things become apparent as to their relative ineffectiveness as combat units.

One is their low top speed of 21-22 knots. This limited the size of the strike group that could be launched at any given time. A slower top end meant that more flight deck length was needed for takeoff, which in turn meant less attack planes could be spotted for a strike. I can't find actual numbers, but I suspect six B5N2s might be the maximum number of attack aircraft that could be spotted for launch. Plus some fighters.

Compare that with some of the strike packages launched from Ryujo, which was a comparatively sized ship with a slightly shorter flight deck, but 7-8 knots greater top speed at 29 knots. Her first wave in the attack on the Aleutians was composed of 15 B5Ns and 3 Zeros.

The other point, which is probably even more critical, is the lack of experienced, qualified pilots for these ships. Given the limited parameters of the Japanese pilot training programs, there were too few new pilots with adequate training coming online even by late 1942. Any good newbie was siphoned off to the fleet carriers. Those sent to the CVEs had to continue their training onboard, when circumstances allowed it. As in when these ships were not acting as aircraft transports.

The Lengerer book gives an example aboard Taiyo early in 1942 when two Zeros were lost with their pilots in good weather and calm conditions, when both planes missed the arrestor cables upon landing. Not sure these just crashed, or just went over the side.

Just thought it was interesting to note.
Post Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 2:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan K wrote:
Interestingly enough, we addressed some of this further above, but let me address some of your questions here.

If you are planning to build Chuyo:

She was the last of the sisters to be converted to a CVE. Her conversion began in July, 1942 and was completed at the end of November. In the wake of the Midway fiasco, she was given a much heavier defensive armament than her sisters. She carried 4 twin Type 89 12.7cm/40 mounts as well as 10 triple 25mmm AA mounts. One Type 89 and three 25mm mounts on the aft, starboard side were enclosed in smoke shields like the front line carriers.

Based on photos of Taiyo in Sept, 1943, it is a near certainty that her deck was covered with a latex finish instead of wood planking at her sinking. In fact, it's likely that, unlike Taiyo, Chuyo never had planking for her flight deck.

If you haven't already done so, I would highly recommend that you view Jaroslaw Kieliszek's (Jarekk) very detailed W-I-P build of sister Unyo. Many questions that you have about details have likely been addressed there. If not, then ask away.

Jarekk's build: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=164317

Some references below.


Wow! This is what I really need. I'm so new at this forum I didn't immediately noticed about Jarekk's build. This will definitely help building my kit. Thanks for everything Dan K.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Interestingly enough, we addressed some of this further above, but let me address some of your questions here.

If you are planning to build Chuyo:

She was the last of the sisters to be converted to a CVE. Her conversion began in July, 1942 and was completed at the end of November. In the wake of the Midway fiasco, she was given a much heavier defensive armament than her sisters. She carried 4 twin Type 89 12.7cm/40 mounts as well as 10 triple 25mmm AA mounts. One Type 89 and three 25mm mounts on the aft, starboard side were enclosed in smoke shields like the front line carriers.

Based on photos of Taiyo in Sept, 1943, it is a near certainty that her deck was covered with a latex finish instead of wood planking at her sinking. In fact, it's likely that, unlike Taiyo, Chuyo never had planking for her flight deck.

If you haven't already done so, I would highly recommend that you view Jaroslaw Kieliszek's (Jarekk) very detailed W-I-P build of sister Unyo. Many questions that you have about details have likely been addressed there. If not, then ask away.

Jarekk's build: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=164317

Some references below.


Attachments:
Chuyo 1943 Illustration MG IJN CV guide.jpg
Chuyo 1943 Illustration MG IJN CV guide.jpg [ 125.92 KiB | Viewed 5861 times ]
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 sm.jpg
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 sm.jpg [ 236.78 KiB | Viewed 5861 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Hello Dan K, It's been a long time since I last posted here. Currently I pre-ordered an Aoshima 1/700 Chuyo kit online. Yes that particular kit I told you about last time. When my kit arrives I'm attempting to make it look more accurate by modifying the bridge part which is looked kinda simplified and I also attempting to modify it's AA battery at the time just before her sinking. Unfortunately, I have insufficient references and I'm not satisfied on the one's provided by Google. As far as I know you're the only one who might help me by providing some line drawings of Taiyo class especially the bridge part and of course the configuration of their AA batteries. You're help will be appreciated. Thank you.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 9:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
I am building a 1/700 Waveline model of the IJN carrier Kaiyo I bought it many years ago. Has anyone built this kit? If so do you have any advise ect. The flight deck you have to build from a sheet of plastic card. You need to scratch build the radio masts. other platforms have to be cut out of plastic card. I am planning to build the kit as commissioned. with 8 triple 25mm mounts. I will paint the ship grey with wood decks and the red and white stern.
Post Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
For those liking the Shinano, here are my two interpretations:

As sunk:
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/IJ ... -858463208
Attachment:
ShinanoSunk.png
ShinanoSunk.png [ 1.39 MiB | Viewed 5886 times ]


and as re-designed as a carrier:
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/IJ ... -858298562
Attachment:
ShinanoDesigned.png
ShinanoDesigned.png [ 1.64 MiB | Viewed 5886 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Boy, that is an interesting question, something that would never have occurred to me. Why invest those extra resources in a subpar vessel?

And yet, it seems you are on to something. I did my best to play around with Photoshop, and it looks like all those mounts are covered with the enclosed smoke shielding, as you thought. Plus, I found a relatively recent illustration of Chuyo. The author obviously has come to the same conclusion.


Attachments:
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 crop.jpg
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 crop.jpg [ 166.64 KiB | Viewed 12264 times ]
Chuyo 1943 Illustration MG IJN CV guide.jpg
Chuyo 1943 Illustration MG IJN CV guide.jpg [ 231.08 KiB | Viewed 12264 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan, one question I have been unable to answer, because the photo is not clear enough, is if the after 5" mount and the triple 25MM guns just forward of it had the gas covers like the fleet carriers with the downturned stacks had on the starboard side aft. Any thoughts?
Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
I did find a copy of the this photo and, damn, great eyes, Dick. This positioning of her main battery is definitely not in any of the literature. Just hiding in plain sight.

I went back to research the Chuyo/Unyo photo post above. After reviewing both the Japanese Wikipedia entries, Tony Tully's notes on Chuyo on the Nihon Kaigun site, and the Shizuo Fukui drawing of Unyo's AA armament fit in mid-1944, I am now certain that it is Unyo. Apparently, the English literature on Unyo's armament is also incorrect. Unyo was armed like Taiyo with six 12cm single mounts. Only Chuyo had twin 12.7cm mounts.


Attachments:
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 sm.jpg
Chuyo at Truk, June 1943 sm.jpg [ 236.78 KiB | Viewed 13532 times ]
Unyo AA fir, mid 1944, via Shizuo Fukui vol sm.jpg
Unyo AA fir, mid 1944, via Shizuo Fukui vol sm.jpg [ 311.03 KiB | Viewed 13532 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan, I presume you have Maru Special #38. The photo of Chuyo on the bottom of page 54 shows a sponson forward with a twin 5" and only one apparent large sponson aft. Some sources indicate that Chuyo and Unyo lost their twin 5", replaced by the 6 single 4.7's, to use the twin 5" to upgrade more "frontline" combatants. If you want to contact me off line, I might have a slightly lighter copy of the photo. dick_jensen_44@msn.com
Post Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Quote:
do you have this particular book


I've seen it, but I don't have it. Good to know.

Quote:
I am not sure you are both talking about the same points.


You might be right, Dick. I took it to mean different cruiser classes with the same 12.7cm mount, though, yes, with different shields. Nor did I reference the Chuyo box art until now. The presumption ( which I endorse) is that the semi shielded mount as seen on Takao/Atago, and virtually all the fleet carriers, was the same as installed on Chuyo and Unyo. Truthfully, there's no close-up or photo clear enough to actually verify that. But, it seems highly unlikely these mounts would be more fully shielded as on Mogami/Myoko/Tone.

Quote:
The photo I have seen with Chuyo carrying twin 5" mounts does not have them located where the box art depicts. The after ones match, but the forward ones are on the fore deck, just forward of the hangar structure.


The photo below has been cited as being either Chuyo or Unyo. For these purposes, it doesn't matter. The larger 12.7cm emplacements do seem to be in the same position as the box art. There is another set of bandstands at the bow that are carrying something. Normally, I would have said 25mm mounts, but these look like single somethings. I know some line art illustration place the other set of 12.7cm mounts up forward, but that's not what these look like. Bit of a mystery, really.


Attachments:
Chuyo 12-4-1943 a.jpg
Chuyo 12-4-1943 a.jpg [ 312.62 KiB | Viewed 13590 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan, I am not sure you are both talking about the same points. Yes, Chuyo carried twin 5" mounts, but they did not have the same shields as the ones on Mogami. They did have the enclosed control station on the side of the mount, like the ones on Takao and Atago (and most of the other carriers). The box art for Chuyo appears to show a full Mogami type shield, which is what I think Bayuro is referring to.

I have one other observation. The photo I have seen with Chuyo carrying twin 5" mounts does not have them located where the box art depicts. The after ones match, but the forward ones are on the fore deck, just forward of the hangar structure.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
By the way Dan K, do you have this particular book? A must have if you wanna know the number of planes on the deck of every IJN CVs in every battles.

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10462796
Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan K wrote:
No, it's not artistic license. Unlike Taiyo, Chuyo and Unyo each carried four twin 12.7cm/40 cal mounts for their main batteries. Same mount as on those cruisers.


Thanks Dan K. I'll take note of it.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
No, it's not artistic license. Unlike Taiyo, Chuyo and Unyo each carried four twin 12.7cm/40 cal mounts for their main batteries. Same mount as on those cruisers.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
A question to Dan K. When I look on a box art of Aoshima Chuyo I noticed that her 12.7 cm AA gun is of a type used on heavy cruisers like Myoko, Mogami and Tone class. Is that possible or it's just an artistic license?
Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Quote:
The end color which appears to be a light tannish grey is probably the color of the linoleum or whatever they put on the deck of these carriers.


I don't know what this color is, because there is variation between color plates of not only these sisters, but other carriers. I've always assumed it was wood deck planking left unpainted, or maybe washed some how.

Quote:
And lastly, as the top illustration seems to accurately portray the Taiyo at some earlier point in its career, I notice the flight deck being shorter than her sisters, so was Taiyo's flight deck lengthened?


It's a good question. Even the Japanese WIki article on her points out there is contradicting information. Supposedly, the flight deck was lengthened by 10m during the late 1943 refit, but an eyewitness officer states otherwise.
Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Attachment:
Taiyo, Unyo, Chuyo color plate, Gakken Perfect Guide to IJN CVs.jpg
Taiyo, Unyo, Chuyo color plate, Gakken Perfect Guide to IJN CVs.jpg [ 144.98 KiB | Viewed 13908 times ]

This illustration from Gakken comes up in lots of searches. I think the bottom scheme is mis identified as the Chuyo, since Chuyo sank before this type of camo was instituted, and since the pattern strongly resembles the Taiyo camo in the US intell document, I believe it is the Taiyo. But it causes me some question as to the colors. On the side, the lighter color is something like IJN grey green used on aircraft or the Tamiya color XF 76. The flight deck light and dark greens dont match, and seem to have a more yellowish or olive hue. The end color which appears to be a light tannish grey is probably the color of the linoleum or whatever they put on the deck of these carriers. Any clue what it was? And lastly, as the top illustration seems to accurately portray the Taiyo at some earlier point in its career, I notice the flight deck being shorter than her sisters, so was Taiyo's flight deck lengthened?
Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all IJN Carrier fans  Reply with quote
Dan K wrote:
Taiyo always carried six single 12cm/4.7inch mounts. These were never replaced. Her sisters were better equipped with four of the twin 12.7cm mounts.

Thank you!
Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:09 pm

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