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Topic review - Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
I understand the question, but let's keep this thread on topic for Yorktown.
Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Lundstrom, The First Team, mentions 30 folding wing F4F-4s (VF-8), 24 SBD-3s between the VB and VS squadrons and 10 TBDs in VT-8, or 64 a/c. US CVs could also hang planes semi disassembled from overhead areas in the hanger. Except for a few fighters, everything must have been jammed into the hanger.
Location of U.S. Naval Aircraft Report, 15 Apr 42, is dated. Same numbers following week, Hornet at sea:
VF-8 18 F4F-3
VB-8 18 SBC-4
VS-8 17 SBC-4
VT-8 9 TBD-1
Notes show that 19 VS-3 SBDs are to re-equip Hornet along with other Saratoga a/c per Lundstrom.
First report in May (14th) shows Hornet still at sea and the following:
VF-8 30 F4F-4
VB-8 12 SBD-3
VS-8 12 SBD-3
VT-8 13 TBD-1
Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Vlad wrote:
Thanks Steve, that illustrates the point quite well. It would seem that at least one whole squadron of SBDs, plus some of the F4Fs and some or possibly all the TBDs were on deck at once.

The reason I asked for hangar parking plans is because I read somehwere (and this may be wrong) that US doctrine was for a "one third deck park". So going off a nominal 72 aircraft for the Yorktown class, that would mean being able to stow 48 in the hangar. I played around with some scaled drawings and couldn't make that many fit, especially considering the SBDs and F4F-3s don't fold their wings. The leisurely arrangement of the SBDs in that Yorktown hangar photo at Midway would imply they were not deliberately tightly packed. Your pictures definitely show more than the "one third" (24 aircraft) routinely on deck.

And yes I am aware that these ships spotted and launched some 40-50 aicraft at a time e.g. at Midway, so I guess up to that many could be on deck permanently and the hangar only needs to accomodate 20-30. The "musical chairs" on deck when conducting limited flight ops that did not involve launching entire strikes must have been quite something...

I just thought of something else that might help me understand the above better. When Hornet launched the Doolittle raid, I have seen vague references to her "own air group being stowed in the hangar", except some CAP F4Fs. Given the deck park doctrine and the fact SBDs didn't fold, this shouldn't really be possible. Are there any pictures of Hornet's hangar during the Doolittle raid, or at least a complete manifest of how many aircraft were stored below and how many (if any) left on shore for the mission?
Post Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Steve, that illustrates the point quite well. It would seem that at least one whole squadron of SBDs, plus some of the F4Fs and some or possibly all the TBDs were on deck at once.

The reason I asked for hangar parking plans is because I read somehwere (and this may be wrong) that US doctrine was for a "one third deck park". So going off a nominal 72 aircraft for the Yorktown class, that would mean being able to stow 48 in the hangar. I played around with some scaled drawings and couldn't make that many fit, especially considering the SBDs and F4F-3s don't fold their wings. The leisurely arrangement of the SBDs in that Yorktown hangar photo at Midway would imply they were not deliberately tightly packed. Your pictures definitely show more than the "one third" (24 aircraft) routinely on deck.

And yes I am aware that these ships spotted and launched some 40-50 aicraft at a time e.g. at Midway, so I guess up to that many could be on deck permanently and the hangar only needs to accomodate 20-30. The "musical chairs" on deck when conducting limited flight ops that did not involve launching entire strikes must have been quite something...
Post Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:04 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
None of my references include a parking plan for Yorktown class aircraft carriers, or any other US aircraft carriers. There may be a good reason for this. A parking plan may never have existed because American doctrine was to use the hangar deck only for maintenance and repair. Operational aircraft were normally parked on the flight deck (there are exceptions). Flight deck parking varied according to operational requirements, aircraft availability and air group composition. Aircraft requiring longer takeoff runs (TBD) were generally parked aft of those requiring a shorter run (F4F). I'll keep looking. If a parking plan did exist, another modeler/researcher may have one.

It should be noted that spare aircraft were stored hung from the hangar deck overhead.

Some photos that may help:
Notice in the photo below how empty the hangar deck is. Also note spare aircraft stowed overhead in the distance in various states of assembly.
Attachment:
80-G-17425.jpeg
80-G-17425.jpeg [ 137.78 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

This second photo shows Yorktown during the Battle of Midway, with more aircraft on the hangar deck.
Attachment:
CV-5 1942 06 04 mural.jpg
CV-5 1942 06 04 mural.jpg [ 278.91 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

This third photo may be Yorktown sometime before Midway (Coral Sea?) possibly preparing for flight operations.
Attachment:
80-G-16518 small.jpg
80-G-16518 small.jpg [ 368.82 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

This photo is pre-war Yorktown showing TBD parking.
Attachment:
NH 95314 small.jpg
NH 95314 small.jpg [ 328.02 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

The photo below is of Enterprise in October, 1941.
Attachment:
CV-6 1941.10 00ac12c60a81754b_large.jpg
CV-6 1941.10 00ac12c60a81754b_large.jpg [ 189.96 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

The next two photos below show various flight deck parking arrangements aboard Enterprise taken on different dates.
Attachment:
80-G-14120 small.jpg
80-G-14120 small.jpg [ 287.35 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

Notice in the photo below the wide variety of national markings on wings. There are even differences in markings on the same aircraft with a large marking on one wing and a small marking on the other. Perhaps the air group was in the process of changing markings when this photo was taken. Aircraft are parked very tightly.
Attachment:
80-G-10150 small.jpg
80-G-10150 small.jpg [ 635.48 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]

The last photo is of Hornet during Midway.
Attachment:
CV-8 1942.06.04 12 SBD DECK OPS.jpg
CV-8 1942.06.04 12 SBD DECK OPS.jpg [ 88.78 KiB | Viewed 293 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Is there a hangar parking plan for the Yorktown class? Something like the one below, that are easy to find for Japanese carriers but I've never seen one for a US carrier:

Image

I know US carriers used deck parks, and with changing aircraft types the number and positions in the hangar may have been fluid. But I'd really like to see a typical loadout in say, early 1942.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
^ An excellent resource for any Yorktown build.

It has all the photos from Pictorial #9 (Yorktown class), only larger and more detailed, as well as many more pictures not included previously.
Post Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: Question about CV-5 paint colors  Reply with quote
I published a book on CV-5 a few years ago in my Warship Pictorial Series.

My website address : http://www.classicwarships.com

Here is a link to a review on this website.
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/bo ... rkyCV5.htm

Steve Wiper


Attachments:
WP44_FrontCover.jpg
WP44_FrontCover.jpg [ 75.26 KiB | Viewed 658 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Question about CV-5 paint colors  Reply with quote
Yorktown was painted in MS-12 before navy blue was substituted for the sea blue. Early photos suggest she had the standard colors of sea blue up to the hangar level, ocean gray from there up to the top of the stack, and haze gray from that point up. However most, if not all, photos of her taken in the Pacific suggest that the haze gray had been covered by ocean gray. So in 1942, she would have been sea blue (5-S) up to the hangar deck and ocean gray (5-O) above that line.
Post Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Question about CV-5 paint colors  Reply with quote
Have a look here: https://www.shipcamouflage.com/usn_cv.htm
Post Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:08 pm
  Post subject:  Question about CV-5 paint colors  Reply with quote
Good Morning
Does anyone around here know the colors of the hull of A.C. USS Yorktown CV-5 1942?
Thanks
Post Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Thank you all for your help....and pictures...
There are still a lot of questions... but I'm sure I'll find the answers with your help.

l'm still awaiting for extra stuff... :-)
Post Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Dick! That is a huge help. That decking is definitely a different color than the painted metal parts on the flight deck so the color may not be that far off.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
The photo is definitely post Eastern Solomons, since some of these 20MM were added at Pearl just before Santa Cruz. The AA fit was essentially unchanged until her big refit, so Oct '42 to July '43. The photo appears to be yellowed and otherwise color shifted, so it would be interesting to know what the original colors actually were.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:25 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Dick. What year would this be then?
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Ok Yorktown fans! Get out your linoleum brown paint. She ( not positive if it is her or not) is yet another US warship that had this color on her decks even after the war started. Can anyone positively identify this shot as CV-5?
Image

This is Enterprise. It is definitely port quarter. Yorktown herself never had that many 20MM in a single row, and neither did Hornet. Enterprise had hers broken into groups with 5 in a single block on the port quarter, a group of 2 just forward of it (with an outrigger between) and a group of 6 further forward. Post refit, there were only 2 in the group immediately forward of the hangar level quad 40MM with an obvious space between them and the block of 4 further forward, so post refit is eliminated. The individual rounded tubs for each gun rule out the Essex class.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:51 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Check out this photo of CV-6 ("released April 1943"): https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 64191.html

The amount of 20mm guns (just at a quick glance) seems to match those in the unknown photo above. In one of the other carrier threads, Rick Davis points out that the guns in the photo don't have Mark 14 gunsights OR the usual iron sights -- it makes me also wonder (like Rick) if the sights were removed for a publicity photo and this is indeed ENTERPRISE in 1944 or 1945. I was under the impression the Mark 14 gunsight required add'l equipment which was mounted in an extension below the gun shield -- if the sights themselves were removed, would this complicated extension also be removed? As I understand it, the sight itself could be easily removed for maintenance, but the supporting frame for the sight would remain on the mount. This support is not present in the photos either.

Image
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Here are two photos worth considering:
Top picture, courtesy Navsource, is HORNET at Santa Cruz just prior to her sinking. This is the most small caliber AA with which she was fitted. Count the 20MM tubs on Port side.

Attachment:
HORNET Santa Cruz.jpg
HORNET Santa Cruz.jpg [ 327.56 KiB | Viewed 507 times ]


Next picture, also courtesy Navsource, is ENTERPRISE, in 1944 (according to caption in Navsource) and in Dazzle. Count the 20MM tubs on the Port side. At some point a number of the single 20MM mounts were upgunned to twins. Pretty sure this photo represents the same time frame as the color close up up the thread.

Attachment:
ENTERPRISE 1944.jpg
ENTERPRISE 1944.jpg [ 129.52 KiB | Viewed 507 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
I don't believe that's CV-5 with all of those 20mm mounts, as others have said. Also, I don't see any brown linoleum in that photo; it's overall tinged brown/sepia due to age, sure, but that's all I believe we're seeing.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans  Reply with quote
Is it possible that this is actually CV-10 then?
Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:59 am

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