The Ship Model Forum

Hello-
I just wanted to inform that Lion Roar has pulled the Repulse Set from shipment and is looking into chnages to better conform the needs of the dedicated modeller.
Andrew's excellent blog will be instrumental for analysis and revision.
Cheers,
Guido

Yessir! Thanks for posting the diagram, Apfelzra...

Without "defending" anyone (and hopefully without "offending", as well), it is a fact that some drawings and plans of the ship, available on the 'net and through other resources, correctly show fittings, weapons and other details in their proper places but NOT necessarily in a defined time period. Some of the very best drawings ever made of this ship that I have seen, are akin to looking through a stack of transparencies--each layer a different time frame.

Discerning which component is present on what layer, let alone determining its proper time frame, (usually without the ability to separate the layers), is both difficult and a task perhaps not worth undertaking by a commercial manufacturer, for a variety of reasons. Such detailed research is made even more problematic when the ship in question has a lengthy career--as did [i]Repulse[/i].

I believe these 3-pdr guns, at any rate, were primarily for ceremonial use, not intended as air-defense weapons. In wartime, their ammunition and placement would almost certainly have been hazards, better eliminated than tolerated.

This will be, I hope, the last word (at least from my end) on the subject of the "missing" 3-pounder guns on the conning tower deck of HMS Repulse in late 1941. See the attached photo that shows parts of two pages from Trumpeter's 1:350 assembly instructions (enlarged with a photocopier) with the diagrammed guns highlighted in yellow and an actual gun (with the barrel replaced with an equal length segment of stretched sprue) from the kit, circled in red. The spare triple-mount 4-in. secondary gun is adjacent, along with a ruler, for size comparisons. My build of the ship just awaits the arrival of Model Masters Vickers .50 caliber gun barrels so I can scratch-build the two quad machine guns mounts for the mainmast platform. The photo had to be significantly cropped to conform to the maximum file size this site permits. Thanks, as always, to Andrew F. and RNFanDan for their wealth of information on this ship.

Thanks Guido!
That's exactly what I was looking for! :thumbs_up_1:

As per Ensign 8 (page 40) definitely no ladder. Rainpipes or Comm-cable tunnels would make sense.
HTHH
Guido

Guys, I wonder if anyone can help me?
I'm working on the Pom-pom platform on my Trumpeter/Pit Road Renown and I've got a little stuck about the legs of the platform. According to Profile Morskie, there seems to be a couple of drainpipes coming down from the bottom of the platform "buckets"...
[attachment=0]DSCF2913.JPG[/attachment]
...but I've seen some builds on which modellers have put ladders on the legs of the platform. I'm inclined to believe there should be drainpipes, as the ladders lead to nowhere; the access to the platform was through stairs up to either side of the center structure. Unfortunately, I can't find a clear picture to help me...anyone have any evidence one way or the other?

Your dead right Kevin! The worst part was almost cutting off the tip of one of my fingers with the trauma shears I was cutting the net with! Unfortunately most divers struggle to know one end of a wreck from the other let alone identify a particular type of gun!

Andrew

[quote="apfelzra"]
Andrew, it must have been a remarkable experience to dive the wreck of the Repulse; [b]to spend valuable time (and air supply) removing old fishing nets from the superstructure seems to be going way beyond the call of duty![/b][/quote]

Now don't let Andrew kid you he worked to hard on that or wasted any of his precious 'air time'! He was using mixed gas and a closed circuit rebreather for his dive, so he could have stayed on the wreck all day, literally, without running out of gas. And removing nets, although a pain in the you know what, is just par for the course if you truly want to see 'things' on many wrecks. Eh Andrew? ;-)

OK, you've convinced me to omit the 3-pounder guns (again), but this time I had to pull off the adjoining PE railings so that I could fill and smooth off the decks prior to repainting again (in order to fill the holes meant for these guns). I had assumed that anyone building the Trumpeter 1:350 kit would know about these 4 parts, and if they were originally intended as anti-torpedo boat guns, they would indeed have been anachronistic by 1941. Of course, so was the HMS Repulse, but that's another thread . . . ;)
I'll post some photos in a few days, including of these guns, though I modified them by removing their rather overwide barrels and replacing them with stretched black sprue for a more "realistic" sizing. They'll go into my growing collection of surplus parts.
Andrew, it must have been a remarkable experience to dive the wreck of the Repulse; to spend valuable time (and air supply) removing old fishing nets from the superstructure seems to be going way beyond the call of duty!

[quote="Andrew F"]

.... that thing they think is the breach of a 3 pounder is actually one of the optics of one of the 12' Bar and Stroud rangefinders... and all the photos...would indicate that the 3 pounders were not present.

Andrew[/quote]

Agreed! In fact, I was hoping Apfelzra might post a photo of his actual model parts, themselves; kit-supplied rangefinders [u]can[/u] look a bit like weapons, certainly enough to trick the eye in some cases, also depending on scale and accuracy of their casting/moulding.

:smallsmile:

Sorry to disappoint you....

But from my own video and my memory of the wreck..... and It's pretty good of this area as I personally removed much of the netting from this area.... that thing they think is the breach of a 3 pounder is actually one of the optics of one of the 12' Bar and Stroud rangefinders. The area where the 3 pounders would be is obliterated and all the photos is Raven and Roberts and in Ensign 8 would indicate that the 3 pounders were not present.

Andrew

Hello HMS Repulse fans,

Of late I have been peppering some of the experts here, especially Andrew F., about the secondary armament of the the Repulse at the time of her sinking. One opinion recently expressed, in response to one of my questions, was whether or not the small deck guns on the conning tower deck (the Trumpeter kit shows a pair on either side) were still there at the time of her sinking. Well, apparently they were -- because divers found these Vickers QF 3-pounder guns on her wreck in 2009. See the photos at this link:

http://dirdudes.blogspot.com/2009/10/hms-repulse.html

Having removed (and saved) these guns from my build, I will now reinstall them, and add photoetch handwheels to their port sides.

Hi Guido,

If you have a look at [url]http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=44007[/url] you will see many of the issue addressed.
Not all the mods I made were actually discussed, for instance the deck behind B turret contains a number of vents that were scratch built and does the rear deck house etc.

Despite all my best efforts I have identified several errors I made which I was unable to correct as the information came too late.

These include:
The Jack staff should come from the main mast starfish / platform level not below
The 4" director platform was enlarged to incorporate the 0.5" quad mounts
The rear Jack stay is off Hood, the Repulse one being slightly different
The rear yardarm is slightly too long and should have access ropes under it

All mods are fully documented as shown on this site, in "real" plans, photos, underwater video or texts. One of the problems with many "plans" is that the authors seem to have copied them from previous "plans" that were also in error. The recent computer generated book is a prime example.

Hello, Repulse-builders!
In this and another thread there's been talk about obvious flaws in the Lion Roar Set for Repulse. The maker is listening and wants to improve the set according to [b][u]your[/u][/b] recommendation, may it be changing parts, adding parts, and amending parts.
If it is OK with you I'll post series of pics here and ask you to comment directly and add items to your wish list.
Since this action is to be taken to improve on accuracy, backing the comment with documentiation in from of a picture or a cutting thereof would be appreciated.
I hope you like the idea.
Guido

[quote="apfelzra"]Andrew,

Thanks so much for the excellent detailed description and photos of your HMS Repulse build. I was able to correct the number and location of the bridge ladders on my model, remove the gun tubs on the aft turret (even fashioned hexagonal grids for the Oerlikons from left-over aircraft carrier screens from my USS Saratoga) and adjusted the shape and railings of the otherwise empty Vickers gun positions on either side of the mainmast platform. The Trumpeter kit, as you probably know, has only two Vickers quad machine guns mounts, and apparently there are four if I include those on the mainmast platform. I can order the 1:350 Vickers .50 caliber gun barrels from Master Models, but are you aware of any other after-market seller of the entire quad mounts? I've been fairly successful scratch-building in plastic but am a little reluctant to try it in brass.[/quote]
HI Apfelza,
You hit the nail on the head.....
There do not (at the moment) appear to be any quad vickers available in 1:350 as separate items. I bought the WEP Repulse set, and the GMM Hood and Hood plus sets. Betweens these there were enough PE components to make up the 4 mounts and have spares to wreck a couple..... which I did! To me the GMM ones seem too tall[img]http://i25.tinypic.com/5vdll0.jpg[/img]. The WEP are about correct [img]http://i31.tinypic.com/of372s.jpg[/img] but you will only get 2 in the Repulse set. I used the Sea-Master barrels and they were great, but after wrecking one of the GMM PE outers trying to make it fit the Trumpeter gun I gave up and made a new core out of Plastic.If you really want to see how it's done have a look at "On the slipway" http://blog.ontheslipway.com/?m=200712. These are awesome! I wish Evert-Jan would consider making these available!

If you are serious about making a super detailed repulse, the GMM Hood and Hood plus sets as well as the WEP Repulse sets are well worth the outlay. I ended up using more than 50% of the parts in the GMM sets and they beautifully complement the WEP set. In particular you get things like eyelets for the funnel rigging etc and better davits, hatches (if I had received it earlier I would have had many of these open or replaced the Trumpeter cast ones), capstan hand wheels, the Vickers quads, better detail for the Pom-poms etc.

Andrew

Andrew,

Thanks so much for the excellent detailed description and photos of your HMS Repulse build. I was able to correct the number and location of the bridge ladders on my model, remove the gun tubs on the aft turret (even fashioned hexagonal grids for the Oerlikons from left-over aircraft carrier screens from my USS Saratoga) and adjusted the shape and railings of the otherwise empty Vickers gun positions on either side of the mainmast platform. The Trumpeter kit, as you probably know, has only two Vickers quad machine guns mounts, and apparently there are four if I include those on the mainmast platform. I can order the 1:350 Vickers .50 caliber gun barrels from Master Models, but are you aware of any other after-market seller of the entire quad mounts? I've been fairly successful scratch-building in plastic but am a little reluctant to try it in brass.

[quote]This question is a follow-up to Andrew F.'s recent post about the errors in the new Lionroar photoetch upgrade set for the 1:350 Repulse kit. When you stated that there should be only one tall ladder on the port side of the bridge, is this the one that is in approximately the same position as that on the starboard side, or should the (second) angled ladder on the port side, close to the forward funnel, be the correct one to keep?[/quote]

There is no tall ladder on the Starboard side. The ladders up are underneath the compass platform and go up in two steps.
[img]http://i29.tinypic.com/qs7fvb.jpg[/img]
from the plans:
[img]http://i27.tinypic.com/209mwdv.jpg[/img]
The last taken during construction.....
[img]http://i32.tinypic.com/2mn1vuq.jpg[/img]
There is more on this on the "build" thread....

The guns on the mainmast should be quad vickers 0.5 machine guns. This is one of the errors in my model in that I didn't realise that the platform was altered and i just put them onto the existing one..... which is rather too tight. The shape of the platform needs modification and some extra guns fabricated as the Trumpeter ones are rather coarse and the GMM ones are not the correct shape. The WEP ones are pretty good and the Sea-master barrels fantastic but very fiddly....but you only get two in the WEP set.
[img]http://i26.tinypic.com/s3ilgj.jpg[/img]
The rear ones are the GMM ones.... the WEP proved too bulky to fit in without having modified the platform....
[img]http://i30.tinypic.com/2akahzl.jpg[/img]
the correct shape of the rear platform is probably closer to this (from Profile morskie)
[img]http://i26.tinypic.com/iy1ypw.jpg[/img]
vs this from the plans:
[img]http://i27.tinypic.com/2zqsffs.jpg[/img]

Note also that the Jack-stay should come from the starfish level in 1941 not where I have it .... as per the plans... again ... too late to correct it.

Andrew

Thanks Dan,

The L'arsenal Oerlikons are quite nice and much better than either the rather 2D WEM or GMM ones, but have you seen the Sea-Master ones?
they are amazing!
[img]http://i25.tinypic.com/2gu03mh.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i28.tinypic.com/29ompv9.jpg[/img]


Andrew

Looking clean and sharp on Y turret, Andrew--nice work! :thumbs_up_1:

Hi Dan,

Didn't realise the ones on Y didn't have shields either! That must have been fun for the operators!

The tubs are fairly easily removed with a sharp scalpel however it then depends on how keen you are as to how accurate you want to be! For to do it properly you should remove them completely, fill and smooth the holes then rebuild the platforms out of brass with supporting struts. L'Arsenel include patterned etched bases for this. However, the alternative given that the turret is painted a dark colour is to remove the tub, put an etched base on the remaining plastic and leave it that.
[img]http://i28.tinypic.com/28sm3a8.jpg[/img]

during build,
[img]http://i29.tinypic.com/2qu58h2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i29.tinypic.com/33u92s6.jpg[/img]

As you can see, it lacks the "relief" of having removed all the base of the tub, but in real life it is barely discernible. I felt that removing the base would risk damaging the turret too much, However there is a "spare" in the kit, and Phil R did successfully do it for his 1936 Repulse.

As far as I understand it, the signalling guns, semaphores and benches on the deck behind B turret were all not present in 1941 at the time of her sinking.

Andrew