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Topic review - Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Dear Boys & Girls, a forthcoming title due 31st December 2019; includes the Carnot.

Title - Les Cuirassés Échantillons (The sample battleships)

Publisher - Léla Presse.

Authors - Gérard Garier & Alain Croce.

French Language.

Pre-order here - https://www.avions-bateaux.com/produit/les-livres/3625

Attachment:
Echantillons 1.jpg
Echantillons 1.jpg [ 226.88 KiB | Viewed 1565 times ]


Terry (Caravellarella)
Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Dear Guest...

Because the ship is portrayed entering the Solent ....

quoted from my build article;

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... index.html

….August 1905…. the Grand Fleet review at Spithead , Solent in Southern England.

Continuing the ‘Entente cordiale’ France sent over the major units of the Northern Squadron. The ships entered the Solent flying the French "Tri-colouer" on the fore- mast and the very tall stern ensign staff, with the courtesy White Ensign hoisted to the very top of the WT mast at the mainmast. Carnot is cleaving the waves off the eastern side of the Isle of Wight closing the coast.



But you do pose a very valid question ! -- The answer is... the info was sent to me as a quote from an old contemporary magazine
" Navy News "article

and I corroborated the principle based on this photo of Massena at the same review- same date -albeit she is at anchor...

as well as the contemporary painting of Massena at the same event with the Royal Yacht passing by

HTH

Jim Baumann

Attachment:
beken.jpg
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Attachment:
Massena at fleet review  - painting.jpg
Massena at fleet review - painting.jpg [ 140.13 KiB | Viewed 2840 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Why is Carnot flying the White Ensign when of course it should be the Union Jack? N'est-ce pas?
Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Carnot en-miniature is finished.

Thank you guys fro the discussion and analysis!

Cheers

Jim Baumann
Attachment:
Carnot finished 01 .jpg
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Attachment:
Carnot finished 1.jpg
Carnot finished 1.jpg [ 102.86 KiB | Viewed 3165 times ]
Attachment:
Carnot finished 2.jpg
Carnot finished 2.jpg [ 74.22 KiB | Viewed 3165 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
I have started a seperate build thread for this model here:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=48865

as I did not want to clutter this thread....


Cheers
JIM B
Post Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Progress is steady--but simply every part has to be scratchbuilt- as nothing in the kit is at all right!

Attachment:
carnot bridge aft.jpg
carnot bridge aft.jpg [ 71.33 KiB | Viewed 3836 times ]


I have cut in main deck stairways-positions of which are based on those of other similar contemporary French pre-dreads; inevitably as soon as my model is finished numerous photos of the deck will suddenly surface and prove me wrong!!!

The fwd bridge is making steady progress, the lower and upper circular platforms were of paper, infused with CA glue wrapped around a floor of thin PE brass scrap. The lower platform had the gun notches cut into the paper whilst a flat layout.

Attachment:
Carnot upper platform.jpg
Carnot upper platform.jpg [ 53.85 KiB | Viewed 3824 times ]


Attachment:
upper fwd mast with platform.jpg
upper fwd mast with platform.jpg [ 50.25 KiB | Viewed 3817 times ]



Carnot as built had a cleaner leaner fwd mast; however I actually prefer the less balanced heavier appearance- so much more interesting and bizarre!

Attachment:
Carnot mast original.jpg
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Attachment:
Carnot mast later.jpg
Carnot mast later.jpg [ 117.03 KiB | Viewed 3192 times ]


Small gussets have been added from the box section blockhouse supporting struts to the upper platform

I continue on...


JIM B :wave_1:
Post Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Thank you Jim and my lack of not mentioning your project was not intended as a slight to you. Your projects are always an inspiration. I guess my next ship will be the Bouvet. While the Carnot is slightly cooler to me, one also needs to consider the manufacturer. YSM is worth the $$$ price, and is now a waterline hull ! I will also purchase the Combrig Henry iv all based on your work.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
newshipmodeler wrote:
I am awstruck as I see the photos of the ship. I am working on my YSM Brooklyn and I see they have released a new model. Is the Carnot unique enough to be modeled by YSM in 1/350th ? Are there other ships with this style hull that are even more bizzare? Looking online, it appears I'm too late to get the Japanese version in 1/700th.
Can you imagine what is was like to walk up to this ship for the first time.


Carnot is indeed pretty unique--however there are no ( official) plans existing of her-- so at this stage I do doubt that YS or anyone else will take on a project as hard as that!!!....

The YS 1/350 BOUVET is a beautiful kit and will satisfy even the most ardent tumblehome fan....
Highly recommended!

If you ask in the main forum--you may find another Carnot kit for sale by a fellow modeller--but beware--I am finding this one VERY tough build--as you will see soon--more photos to come...

Jim Baumann
Post Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:39 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
I am awstruck as I see the photos of the ship. I am working on my YSM Brooklyn and I see they have released a new model. Is the Carnot unique enough to be modeled by YSM in 1/350th ? Are there other ships with this style hull that are even more bizzare? Looking online, it appears I'm too late to get the Japanese version in 1/700th.
Can you imagine what is was like to walk up to this ship for the first time.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
..... so I chose to build a model of a ship which has no plans.... doh! :doh_1:

I have spent hours looking at old photos and have gleaned tiny detail after tiny detail--and yet... the whole model really is an amalgam of halftruths and guesswork...--but --I will rely on the old maxim of:( lightly abridges

If it looks right ...=> then it (might be! :heh: ) is right....

We continue on.

Carnot had a massive blockhouse really quite a long way up the fwd structure; this required additional bracing through the deck levels to support.

Attachment:
Carnot  bridge suports.jpg
Carnot bridge suports.jpg [ 89.88 KiB | Viewed 3850 times ]


These supporting columns appear from photos to square in section. The positioning of these was tricky--as to obtain alignment the decks needed to be affixed firmly-==> however the mainmast - made of copper tube was already well embedded and installed. To obtain the correct positions was a process of trial and error- which meant the decks took a hammering...-These were made good by filling with white glue--with the second coat it self-levelled .. phew!-

Attachment:
Carnot  bridge suports3.jpg
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The drill gouges in the lower bridge structures were made good by wrapping a strip of paper around it.

Attachment:
Carnot  bridge suports5.jpg
Carnot bridge suports5.jpg [ 95.33 KiB | Viewed 3843 times ]




The PE strips were cut in situ by holding the strip on an miniature anvil and cutting with a sharp Stanley blade
Attachment:
Carnot  bridge .jpg
Carnot bridge .jpg [ 82.26 KiB | Viewed 3202 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Amazing work as usual Jim!! From what I can tell, the shape of your bridge looks spot on. I’m no expert at all, but looking at the photos, the lower forward bridge deck looks like the forward bridge lower deck on “Massena” but with the mast and the cabin behind it being 1 or 2 frames further forward (wrt to the shape of the deck), which is what I think yours looks like. :thumbs_up_1:
Post Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Doing my level best to figure out Carnots fwd bridge from photos--
not having any concrete plans to follow slavishly ... :big_grin: I am drawing my own plans from various angles of photos--I am no expert at this but it is starting to look like the real thing --in a 1/700 kind of way!

below is the first bridge level-- the distinctive pierced sides are thin PE strips- cut from a much larger PE structire gleaned from a L'arsenal 1/350 PE set....

The deck itself is made of paper - cut folded in half to give perfect symmetry, then pressed flat and infused with CA.

This gives a 'scale' thin deck....

Its a very fiddly pastime as each brass section is seperate...


Attachments:
bridge deck pierced surround.jpg
bridge deck pierced surround.jpg [ 106.34 KiB | Viewed 6699 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
That wouldn't be an easy task GA. French pre-dreads were one-off ships with marked differences between them. This means that, with possible exception of railings, a set of PE for one ship could not be used for another.
Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
JIM BAUMANN wrote:
Thank you gents for your insight(s)

certainly they appear on closer examination to be hinged-though in virtually all my pics of the ship they are deployed outboard--with the exception of the photo that John has posted! :big_grin:

Here is another view of that hinge...

Attachment:
Carnot davits.jpg


Wouldn`t it be great to have PE kits available for the French Predreadnought era ships.....
Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Thank you gents for your insight(s)

certainly they appear on closer examination to be hinged-though in virtually all my pics of the ship they are deployed outboard--with the exception of the photo that John has posted! :big_grin:

Here is another view of that hinge...

Attachment:
Carnot davits.jpg
Carnot davits.jpg [ 175.42 KiB | Viewed 6051 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Thanks, cerberus!
Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Well John, think about folding bridge wings on German warships. Most photos show those wings unfolded but designers must have thought that, under certain conditions, folding them would be advantageous.

Besides, as you have pointed out, if those aren't hinges:
Image

I would like to hear explanation as to what they are......
Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Hi Michel,
Yes indeed, it is “la Foudre”. There is only one other illustration of her in this book, which is this.
Attachment:
foudre.JPG

The book it came from is “Manuel du manoeuvrier” Vol III (1900)

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 7/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 8/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/manueldum ... 9/mode/1up

From the book.

Installations pour hisser les torpilleurs. — Quel-
ques bâtiments de guerre portent des torpilleurs ; des transports
(la Foudre en France, le Vulcan en Angleterre, etc.) ont même
été particulièrement afiectés à ce service.

Les marines de guerre étrangères emploient pour leur ma-
nœuvre des mâts de charge ou des grues tournantes analogues,
toutes proportions gardées, à ceux décrits précédemment. Le
poids de ces torpilleurs variant entre 15 et 20 tonneaux, les in-
convénients de la patte d'oie unique sont plus sensibles; aussi en
France, le transport la Foudre a été installé d'après le principe
du pont roulant qui permet de hisser le torpilleur avec deux ita-
gues en fil d*acier, crochées ou maillées vers ses extrémités
(fig. 71, 72 et 73). Une poutre plus longue que le torpilleur re-
pose par ses extrémités et par Tintermédiaire de galets sur deux
systèmes de rails placés transversalement au-dessus du pont du
bâtiment, à une hauteur telle que- le torpilleur hissé sous la
poutre puisse parer le bastingage. Les rails débordent la coque,
de chaque bord, d'une quantité suffisante pour mettre le torpil-
leur à la mer. La poutre est munie de verrous qui permettent de
rimmobiliser aux divers postes pour pouvoir manœuvrer les
itagues de hissage à Taide de treuils à vapeur. Toutes les fois
qu'on déplace la poutre sur ses rails, il faut suspendre le tor-
pilleur par les braguets et donner du mou dans les itagues.

Des palans croches à diverges hauteurs le long de la coque
servent à main tenir le torpilleur quand on fait la manœuvre par
roulis (1). L'installation de la Fondre perufiet de mettre sur le pont
quatre torpilleurs cùte à côte.

Mais quel que soit le système employé la manœuvre est à peu près
impossible par mauvais temps et délicate par mer agîtée.
Si on juge qu'elle est faisable hisser ou débarquer le torpilleur
sous le vent, en évitant de venir en travers par crainte des
roulis.

Hisser les embarcations par mauvais temps* —
Cette opération, difficile avec une embarcation légère devient “


Thanks Darius, I’m glad someone else thinks it makes sense. I think it must have looked quite spectacular in operation, almost like something out of science-fiction. There are pictures of her on the move with the “extensions” deployed, so I am not sure when they were retracted. It certainly gives plenty of modelling options, if they are wanted.

Best wishes.

Here is another photo
Attachment:
carnot_A.JPG


edit spelling corrected
Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
Makes sense for me John. Those end frames extend quite a way from ship sides and,if it was permanent structure, would have been extremly vulnerable to damage. Even out of the ordinary sway (side to side motion) could have deformed them and rendered whole arrangement useless.
Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Cuirassé Carnot fans......  Reply with quote
cerberusjf wrote:
I came across an illustration in a book that could be useful for the boat-handling rig by the aft funnel. The illustration is from another French ship of the same period, but the similarities are striking. The rig is like an overhead crane seen in factories. I have chopped the illustration to show how it works. There seems to be a variety of solutions to overcome the problem of launching boats from ships with such large tumblehomes. If you look at Carnot, Jaureguibbery, Massena and Bouvet, they are all different.
Hope it helps.


Hi Cerberus, I suspect those drawings are from Le Foudre, the torpedoboat-mothership? Are there any more images/drawings of her in that book, and if so, could you tell me which book? (or, maybe even supply the drawings?) Le Foudre has been on my scratchbuilding wishlist for almost a year and I need all the references I can get.

Thanks in advance,

Michel
Post Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:22 am

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