The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:03 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
What is the name in the logo in the top left? (hint it's something dot com):
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
I see a few more clues in the drawings from The Dreadnought Project:

While the side view in takelriss_100dpi shows a single-piece rectangular door with rounded corners, langsschnitt_100dpi implies hard corners and has additional vertical lines that correspond to the faint lines I see between portholes in the photos. (Neither drawing, as mentioned before, show any portholes on the gun cover door at all.) This second drawing also indicates that the guns are in tubs slightly lower than the adjacent deck.

The plan view file titled zwischendeck_100dpi indicates that these tubs are octagonal (until they are intercepted by the curvature of the hull), and the guns are conventionally mounted on a pedestal - I don't think they'd be able to revise the pivot point to the hull exit socket, so I'm pretty sure the doors must be able to open somehow. (I'm thinking of something similar to Arizona's casemate gun doors, when they were using the hard covers instead of the canvas drapes). Oddly, there are what look like a couple of armchairs lapping over into the sunken tubs... maybe they're not sunken at all? (obviously the chairs are movable and are just shown there for examples - likewise the large conference table and chairs must be able to move, else they'd impede the gunners) Given the turning radii and the need to access the breeches, there's definitely not enough room in there for a bulkhead between the mounts, so one should be able to see clear through the ship if both doors were opened.
So... new "Holy Grail" photo search: A Kaiser-class ship with the chaser gun ports opened!
I'm gonna go for it in my build - and if the proof doesn't appear before it's time to install the doors, I'll just have to take my best guess!

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Sean, I really don't know! I haven't fitted these guns yet to my own model.

But I think there must be some pintle support just inside the skin, allowing the gun both to traverse and to elevate in a limited arc. I can't see any covers hinged or otherwise. The contraption then is much like the flexible guns in WW2 bomber aircraft, if you see my comparison. As there are large portholes close to the gun sighting shouldn't be a problem.
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Great photos, thanks Maarten!

What do you make of the stern gun covers? The photos don't match the drawings - which imply a rectangular hinged (?) cover with no portholes. I think I see some very faint vertical lines in the first photo - perhaps two panels with an accordion-fold between them for the two portholes forward of each gun, and a single swinging panel for the aftmost portholes to open up the gun ports for action? (Getting ready to start my own build, and thinking it might be interesting to open up the stern like this)

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
SeanF wrote:
Looking at the plans from The Dreadnought Project, and comparing against photos...

Were the bow and stern below-deck 88mm guns ever mounted? Or were they deleted and plated over before commissioning?

- Sean F.

It seems the bow guns were plated over, however at least in SMS Kaiser the stern guns seem to have been fitted.
Attachment:
SMS_Kaiser_89354_ptqtr.jpg
SMS_Kaiser_89354_ptqtr.jpg [ 57.54 KiB | Viewed 84 times ]
Attachment:
SMS_Kaiser_89355_stbdbow.jpg
SMS_Kaiser_89355_stbdbow.jpg [ 53.22 KiB | Viewed 84 times ]
Attachment:
SMS_Kaiser_89356_aft.jpg
SMS_Kaiser_89356_aft.jpg [ 51.35 KiB | Viewed 84 times ]
Attachment:
kaiserl_03.jpg
kaiserl_03.jpg [ 61.55 KiB | Viewed 84 times ]
Attachment:
kaiserl_04.jpg
kaiserl_04.jpg [ 87.21 KiB | Viewed 84 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Looking at the plans from The Dreadnought Project, and comparing against photos...

Were the bow and stern below-deck 88mm guns ever mounted? Or were they deleted and plated over before commissioning?

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Maarten
For some reason I cant send you a email. Try sending me one so I can reply to it .
Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 5:57 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Richard OMalley wrote:
Maarten
Is the " at " in your email address the word at or @
Richard

@, but you should also delete the hyphens! :smallsmile:
Post Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:40 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Maarten
Is the " at " in your email address the word at or @
Richard
Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Richard OMalley wrote:
Hi Maarten
With the information you have posted there will be no problem making a accurate Kaiser Class hull . My interest in WWI German Battleships and Battle Cruisers has grown thanks to your help . You and your work are a inspiration!
My e-mail address is ( richardjomalley@yahoo.com )
Lets stay in touch.
Richard


With pleasure, Richard! My email is (maarten.schonfeld-at-skynet.be)
I was only concerned that you might not be aware that a Kaiser class kit already existed. Maybe it's not available at all in the US so there might still be a market for you. It would be pityful if you only found out after you made the plug!
Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Hi Maarten
With the information you have posted there will be no problem making a accurate Kaiser Class hull . My interest in WWI German Battleships and Battle Cruisers has grown thanks to your help . You and your work are a inspiration!
My e-mail address is ( richardjomalley@yahoo.com )
Lets stay in touch.
Richard
Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Richard OMalley wrote:
Hi Maarten
I make fiberglass hulls for RC models here in the US .I am thinking of making SMS Friedrich der Grosse in 1/100.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I just came across this: a good kit of the Kaiser class in 1:100 scale seems to exist already: http://www.ml-modelships.com.ua/mlmodellship.php?ln=ru&page=Friedrich_der_Grosse

Yes, this is from Russia, maybe you can't even open the website in stateside US! Let me know what you think.
Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Richard OMalley wrote:
Hi Maarten
Wish there were section drawings for station positions 44 and 46 on the " Dreadnought Project " plans of Fridrich der Grosse . I will need your advice on that area when I start. :wave_1:

Hi Richard,

You are picking my brain, man! :smallsmile:

I wish too that those rearward section drawings had survived the time, or a good official line drawing of the hull for that matter! But alas, to my knowledge it has disappeared over time. ' Verschwunden!'

I am as much in the dark as you. However, I was reasoning that the line of dreadnought designs of the German Imperial Navy had a logical evolution, each class being very much based on the previous one with distinct alterations. So I reckoned that using the ICM 1:350 König class hull could be used with slight changes for the other classes. This worked pretty well for the Baden: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=27003&p=715524&hilit=sms+baden#p715524, hence I decided to take it a step further to the Kaiser class.

So I can't help you any further than this, if you really need to have the sections aft of 'Spant 48' you will either have to loft these yourself, based on the rest of the plans, or adapt from one of the other classes: here are the lines of the Bayern class.
Attachment:
05 red.jpg
05 red.jpg [ 285.21 KiB | Viewed 668 times ]


For comparison, just to show how similar these hulls were, here the sections of the Nassau class ('Haccay' is 'Nassau' in Cyrillic/Russian letters).
Attachment:
18 red.jpg
18 red.jpg [ 234.08 KiB | Viewed 663 times ]
Attachment:
19 red.jpg
19 red.jpg [ 256.04 KiB | Viewed 663 times ]
Attachment:
20 red.jpg
20 red.jpg [ 220.62 KiB | Viewed 663 times ]
Btw, adaptation using a ICM hull worked also in this case, the biggest differences were higher up in the hull. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=149535
Post Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Hi Maarten
Wish there were section drawings for station positions 44 and 46 on the " Dreadnought Project " plans of Fridrich der Grosse . I will need your advice on that area when I start. :wave_1:
Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 8:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Hi Maarten
I just now looked at your post again on the Kaiser Class . After looking at the plans on the Dreadnought Project, I noticed the body lines or sections at the stern start at frame no. 48 . I was concerned about the frames before that ,and there it is photos you posted of her upside down showing the area that is not on the plans. You must have been reading my mind. Do you have any of the body lines before no.48? If not do you think your photos are enough to make a good hull . That is a stupid question as you would not be doing it if you feel there wasn't enough info of the stern .
Thank you for your offer to help as I will need it . I am giving you credit for your help on my post here in US and will also post on this web site . It shows you do alot of research on your builds .
Richard
Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 11:53 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks for the clarification, Maarten
Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:07 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
And here the side view of the stern of SMS FdG, from the plan in 'The Dreadnought Project'. Clearly not the spade rudders of the König or Bayern classes. Unfortunately the stern section views are missing, but I'm pretty sure these rudders were vertical, and not canted outwards.
Attachment:
Kaiser class stern sideview.jpg
Kaiser class stern sideview.jpg [ 316.25 KiB | Viewed 639 times ]

And a picture of the rudders and screws of 'König Albert'.
Attachment:
528245Konig_Albert_2.jpg
528245Konig_Albert_2.jpg [ 108.78 KiB | Viewed 635 times ]
Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Hi Chuck,

The photo you showed is from the Bayern, under tow in April 1935 by the Dutch tugs 'Zwarte Zee', 'Witte Zee' and 'Ganges', just before passing the Firth of Forth railway bridge on their way to the shipbreakers yard in Rosyth.

The Bayern had spade type rudders, slightly angled outwards, as is in the ICM kit. These rudders were pioneered on the König class.

The Kaiser class though had twin conventional rudders, sitting vertically and being lead by a small skeg.
Attachment:
SMS König Albert rr.jpg
SMS König Albert rr.jpg [ 364.52 KiB | Viewed 663 times ]
scan from the book 'Jutland to Junkyard'. Bot look closely, the top right picture is -surprise!- not the König Albert (Kaiser class), but again the 'Bayern'!

Small mistake, upside down these ships are hard to recognize, but the rudders are indeed the giveaway. If you need the drawing details I will make scans of these too.
Post Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 12:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Hi, Marteen:

I am curious about rudder arrangement on the Kaiser class battleship. Many drawings depict the ship with twin semi-spade rudders with rudder horns, similar to what you have . But image of the Kaiser's upside down salvaged hull in Scapa Flow seem to show two pure spade rudders with no rudder horn, with the rudders angled outwards. This latter arrangement is similar to later German twin rudder capital ships such as Bismarck and Scharnhorst.

I was wondering if you have any other reference photos for the rudder arrangements on these ships.

Image
Post Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:05 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
As promised, here some update photos. Enjoy!
Attachment:
IMAG2512 r.jpg
IMAG2512 r.jpg [ 396.18 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Attachment:
IMAG2513 r.jpg
IMAG2513 r.jpg [ 294.19 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Attachment:
IMAG2514 r.jpg
IMAG2514 r.jpg [ 342.76 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Attachment:
IMAG2515 r.jpg
IMAG2515 r.jpg [ 341.72 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Attachment:
IMAG2516 r.jpg
IMAG2516 r.jpg [ 320.25 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Attachment:
IMAG2517 r.jpg
IMAG2517 r.jpg [ 359.13 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
Post Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Kaiser class fans  Reply with quote
Richard OMalley wrote:
Hi Maarten
I make fiberglass hulls for RC models here in the US .I am thinking of making SMS Friedrich der Grosse in 1/100 scale and wondering how you are making out with this build in 1/350 .
You have already helped me by stating the frame spacing is 1200mm . Your build could help anyone making the model .
Started the HMS London / Norfolk plug in 1/96 and used the body lines you posted on the Cruiser section . I gave you credit for them on the web site here in the US .
Richard

Hi Richard,

Thank you very much, I am glad my tinkerings are of good use and inspiration to others! As a matter of fact I should make some photo's of my FdG as it has progressed since my last update, masts and superstructures now basically complete.

If you think you need any help getting forward with your plug for a fiberglass version, please let me know, you can get all the references I have used.
Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:55 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group