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Topic review - Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
I am making a model of the Prince of Wales battleship and I have seen some of the boats (45ft) painted blue on some models. Is this correct? Or should all boats be painted in basic grey?
Post Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
G’day all, I’ve found a detail in the KGV class that I’d like some clarification on. The images are of HMS KGV and HMS PoW early in their careers. I’m curious about the circled areas. As you can see they appear to be open areas that have a bulkhead facing outward with carley floats stored on top. I think they might be timber storage areas. There are two of these on each ship. The Tamyia 1/350 scale kit and Profile Morski plans that I have represent these as solid blocks. The images say otherwise. Does anyone have more detail on these?

TIA
David Gatt.


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
PRINCE OF WALES was completed with a single RDF (later called "radar") Type 281 set. It had two aerials, one (at the after masthead) for transmission and another (at the foremasthead) for reception. Type 279 as fitted in KING GEORGE V had a similar arrangement; the other three ships were completed with Type 281 as in POW. The surviing ship later had the 279 or 281 replaced by Type 281B (which had only one aerial) before deploying to the Far East (by that time it was possible to combine transmit and receive functions in one aerial - on the mainmast in these ships), thus freeing the foremasthead for Type 293.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Dick! Thanks for the original document! Now I'm a bit uncertain whether a second 281 type radar was installed on the aft mast during the refit? It is clearly seen on the pictures of the ship during the Atlantic Carter meeting.

I may wrote my thoughts unclearly: I want to show my ship under the period of the painting of the hull like you can see on the abovementioned picture. I know the that shows a different ship, I only wanted to emphasise the working process on the hull.

Áron
Post Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
aaron_at_midway wrote:
Hello everyone!

...

I want to show the ship half repainted to the famous camouflage pattern, something like seen on these picture:

Image

...

Áron


You can tell me much, but this is not PoW for sure...

Definitely not PoW, it is the USS Utah, and the ship is not being painted into camo but peacetime gray above the boot topping. (Routine drydocking and repainting)
Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
aaron_at_midway wrote:
Hello everyone!

...

I want to show the ship half repainted to the famous camouflage pattern, something like seen on these picture:

Image

...

Áron


You can tell me much, but this is not PoW for sure...
Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
From the horse's mouth:


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Here I am again with a question about the PoW radars!

Wikipedia said (yeah, yeah I know, never ever use it) that there were Type 279 radars on the masts. I'm not sure but I think saw a picture of the ship on this topic with this information as well.

But according to this picure:

Image

PoW had type 281 radars instead of 279.

Image

Could somebody help me please?

Image

Flyhawk also gave 281 PE radars.

Thanks

Áron
Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Ahh, yes, I really hate to paint the little boats, I already decided to skip them this time. Don't know why I have this revulsion because the assembling and upgrading of the boats are delightsome but the paintwork... just not my cup of tea. And I also want to show the damage on the boat deck (is it the proper name?) and on the aft funnel.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Áron

You're welcome, I think it will be a great model whatever you decide. Perhaps if you really want some kind of camo, the outline of a pattern somewhere would do?

There is a short black and white film of the crew of PoW painting her after the trip to Newfoundland, one shot shows the forward HACS tower with a crew member sitting on a plank suspended by rope with a long handled paintbrush painting the curved part of the tower structure under where the director sat! No lifeline or harness, health and safety in 1941!

Just as an after thought, during the battle the ships boats took damage, 3 destroyed the rest damaged so boats would be somewhat absent or in the process of being replaced.

Any further info you need don't hesitate to ask,
Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
That helps a lot, Cag, thank you again your work!

Painting the borders of the different colours and paint in the name could be an interesting feature, maybe I'm gonna make it. But it could be a sensitive issue as the precise colours of the camouflage are a bit controversial according the PoW camouflage topic after all. James Duff at Sovereignhobbies, EJ and the other PoW "scolars" may made a consensus on that, but who knows that will be the ultimate colour code? I definitely don't but I did not make any proper research on the topic as the abovementioned gentlemans.
So, according to your findings I think they had cleared up the mess first, changeg damaged platings and superstructure elements, made some modernisation like the new radar insertion and also the pom-poms. Only after that come the painting of the lower part of the hull, launching (not sure this is the proper phrase) and finally finished the painting on the upper hull and the superstructure.

I insist on displaying some of the damage, the hull painting and maybe the mount of the type 271 radar.
Post Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi Áron, hope the shift has gone well, I know that feeling! I've had a look and can tell you that you're correct on the dock used, and that PoW was bow in to the dock, the image shows that.

Prince of Wales arrived at Rosyth on the 30th May and was taken into the outer basin by 18.30 that evening.

The crew began to de fuel and take out her ammo to prepare for docking and the 1st Sea Lord visited. The Board of Inquiry into the loss of Hood arrived and took evidence. On Thursday the 5th June the ship was docked by 13.45. The crew began cleaning and clearing wreckage etc, the shell was found on the 8th and removed and the chains at the bow for the paravanes removed.

US Navy officers and officers from the Duke of York visited and by the 16th June refitting began. On the 19th the 2nd in command of the Home Fleet Vice Admiral Curteis hoisted his flag on PoW. Repainting began on the 27th June and by the 30th she was out of the dock and back in the outer basin where repainting continued.

So I would say your idea of showing some camo being painted in dock is feasible, as her log says it began on the 27th. I would guess it could be hull, but could be anywhere you decide as it's your model and your imagination!

I hope that helps and gives you something to work with. I've also seen images of Queen Elizabeth and other ships where the outline of the camo pattern has been marked on the hull in paint and the relevant paint name marked inside the shapes. I don't know if PoW may or may not have had this but there is artistic licence!

Very best of luck with the project, I will look forward to it. My uncle was a pom pom gunner so was released late and had to leave the ship as she sank, and was wounded so managed to be sent to Colombo rather than remain in Malaya. He didnt talk much about it, I think the sight of lost friends affected him, we forget that part of the clean up we see written in the logs include the human remains. He did say that those killed in the Bismarck battle were buried at sea on the way to Iceland which, together with Hood's loss, was very hard.

Although they believed they'd hit Bismarck it was never spoken of out of respect for those lost on Hood.

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hello Cag!

That would be awesome, thanks! You probably will not cause any delay as I will have a 24 hour shift tomorrow at my work (hooray). And of course I haven't convinced myself yet to start the kit. Deciding which part should be the first is always the hardest part for me. As I would like to do some electrical work on the diorama (absolute dummy for phisics of course) planning the whole process may last for several days (maybe weeks) before the actual work.
All of the ships were positioned bow in on the archives I have found (PoW, KGV, QE, DoY) so I'm gonna make the diorama accordingly unless I found something against of it.

I hope your unce were among the the ones who had abandoned the ship in time and told you the story himself! I cannot imagine how extremely brutal could have been those naval battles. When I first saw the drawing of the shell hits at Denmark Staright I thought: 6 hits oh come on, what is that for a battleship. But after I flipped through the images on Hood Associtaions web page you recommended and red about the penetration of the shells via several metal decks and bulkwards and see the splinter damages as well I just simply astonished.

Best wishes!

Áron
Post Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Áron,

No problem, I'm happy to help. I have her ships logs so if it's ok with you and it doesn't stop your work, I'll take a look this weekend and post some details for you then, it's just I'm away from home at the moment and cant view them.

I know the dock was pumped out and the 15 inch shell was discovered and removed for investigation by ordnance officers. I also know there is a aerial image in a Scottish Archive of Rosyth with PoW in dock. If I'm remembering correctly she was bow in, ie her stern was next to the dock gate and it was No 1 dock, but again I'll make sure for you.

It's sounds an exciting project, my uncle served aboard PoW from her completion to sinking so your build will be an often viewed one for me!

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Thank you, Cag, you helped me a lot! Hood Assiciation has truly remarkable and detailed informations and pictures of the damages PoW suffered. I also have some impression of the paintig job as the page has pictures of the lower hull as well.

The only new question is that the report wrote at 8th, June sad "On Friday 6th June, on pumping out the dry dock..." I assume that between 27th May and that day the ship was in the dock in water. Maybe the engineers of the dock had repaired the upper damages on the deck and on the superstructure, and after that was the water pumped out. This may interfere with my plan showing the ship under paintig and repairing the upper damages....

I have already red about the replacement of the UP weapons to pom-poms, the kit gave only those anyway. Also much obliged to you on the 20 mm AA topic!

Cheers
Post Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Áron,

As an extra thought, the unrotated projectile weapons, two on Y turret and one on B turret, would be being removed and pom poms put in their place. It would be an 8 barrel mount on B turret and a four barrel on Y.

All of her high angle directors and the pom pom directors received splinter padding protection to stop shell splinter damage which had occurred during the battle with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

Again hope this is some use
Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:14 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi Áron, well I've seen the file in the Archives that contain the very full and detailed damage report of Prince of Wales after the Denmark Strait battle.

So to help with your questions
1. The colour one is from the Hood Association website and is more accurate, however the lines denoting the path of the shells on some hits are in error.

2. The boat deck hit as it is termed went through the boat deck and into her port side 5.25 shell handling room, whizzed around, shaved the hair of the back of one of the rooms occupants head, and fell to the deck. It was dumped over the side by one of the chief petty officers and a crewman during the battle. So I know that the armour of the handling room was removed but I think the turret would have remained in place as it was not damaged.

3. Y turret jammed due to various factors regarding shells jamming in their trays as the turret turned as PoW turned away after Hood sank (although only two guns out of four were actually still working in the turret) but this was fixed about 2 hours after the battle and fired again in the subsequent action after Hood sank. On the journey back to Rosyth Y turret jammed again, but all repairs would be internal. The tower hit was the forward HACS tower (the one which has the two forward high angle directors on) which cut electrical power to the starboard high angle director, they spliced the wires at sea and they were then fully replaced in the repair plus the tower was repaired and the Type 273 was fitted.

4. The 20mm guns were shipped on board when she departed for Singapore and were fitted by an Engineering company whilst in dock at Cape Town.

If you go to the Hood Association website they have pics taken from the damage report file which show the damage. The hit at the stern is interesting as the damage report shows that the entry point was forward of the exit point, which, unless a shell can bounce backwards at a more accute angle than it entered, would suggest that hit came from ahead not astern as shown in the image. In fact according to the report the only hit that did not come from ahead was the aforementioned boat deck hit which came from just 5 degrees aft of the beam.

Hope that helps
Best wishes
Cag
Post Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hello everyone!

I'm going to start Flyhawk's 1/700 Prince of Wales 12/1941 kit. My intention is to display her during the refitting between May and July in drydock after the battle with the german battleships. In the past days - okay, weeks exactly - I have red this topic and try to gather as much information as I can but I'm sure I have glided over some important issues. As my job is really far from naval history or mechanics and I am newbie in warshipship modelling - due to my lack of aknowledgement I have some questions about my build.

I want to show the ship half repainted to the famous camouflage pattern, something like seen on these picture:

Image

Image

Questions about the painting job:

1:: Is it possible that the shipyard workers only paint the camouflage pattern over the original paint directly or did they scrap it, repaint it with some primer and then paint the new layer?

2.: How worn out could be the part of the ship below waterline? Did the fore and aft part eroded in the same way?
2.: Did they repaint the antifouling on the ship or just leave it as it was?

Questions about the damage:

I have found this two pictures present the german shell impacts.

Image

Image

1.: The two differs slightly (shells maked 1 and 4 in the upper drawing), does somebody know which one is more accurate?

2.: Could somebody give me a hint wether the 5.25" turret was damaged - see on the abovementioned pics - and if yes, was it removed from the ship to repair?

3.: I red that during the battle the Y tower became unusable due to ammunition trasporting machinery malfunction and also two towers struck and was not capable of being rotated, but the source did not mention which two towers struck. Do you have any information on the repairing on those malfunction? Were the turrets been dismantled? I guess not but is's just a guess.

4.: While I went over the topic I think I red somewhere that the 7 oerlikons were added after the recontuction, maybe after the Atlatnic carter. Im not sure... Could it be possibe?

Image
They can be seen on this picure on the aft part of the deck

Image
but I can't recognise them on this picure. Or they were covered?
For now I have these questions on my mind (sure there will be more), hope you can help me with the issues!

Áron
Post Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hello!

I'm just about to add the rigging to my 1/350 KGV and realized I have no decent rigging diagram.

If there is anyone with such information, would you care to share with me?
Post Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:57 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Regarding the 45ft medium speed picket boat, you may want to visit Portmouths Boathouse No 4; I can't find a better picture that this but I noticed it hidden in the corner.

Image

They also have a skimming dish and a typical 25ft fast motor boat:

Image

Image

Chatham should have one as well:

https://www.finewaterline.org/rn-ships-boats.html
Post Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:43 am

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