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Topic review - At 'Em Arizona Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
EG,

Some of your assumptions were out of date by the Fall of 1941.

First off, yes USS ARIZONA originally in early 1941 was planned for another overhaul to finish up work done in her most recent overhaul completed in January 1941, installing quad 1.1-in mounts, radar, etc. But, as 1941 progressed and additional requirements were added to each battleship's overhaul and upgrading, schedules slipped. The overhaul on USS COLORADO was slipping pretty badly. As war approached BuShips put out a revised Overhaul Schedule for battleships (I assume also for other ships) at PSNY and NorNY that would limit each battleship to only 3-months on 10 November 1941. I found at NARA in USN Weekly Overhaul Reports, a document dated 22 November 1941, in response from PSNY objecting to the new schedule saying that there was no way to get everything done that was on the "To Do" list for overhauls and upgrades on each battleship in 3-months. There list of scheduled arrivals for December 1941 and January 1942, DID NOT list USS ARIZONA.

Then I came across documents in the King Board Air Defense Improvement Program showing monthly progress and planned dates to install the planned updates. USS ARIZONA on the Battleships list was in flux during September-December 1941 reports. As you can see, even as early as the 1 September 1941 report, USS ARIZONA's next Overhaul wasn't scheduled until August-October 1942. Which slipped further on the 1 November 1941 report, to January 1943!!

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BuShips during this period, authorized PHNY to do work normally limited to the West Coast yards, PSNY for battleships, spelled out in mid-October 1941 document, that included installing quad 1.1-in mounts and then the motor drives for this mounts (a two step process), radar installations, and other upgrades. Then with the "War Warning" sent out during the last week in (27th) November 1941, everything changed as to what was planned, even if USS ARIZONA was scheduled for a West Coast visit for R&R, it would have been cancelled.

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The "official" plans on Battle Fleet camouflage was still in flux. There were official directives from Washington Navy Dept. and BuShips in particular to repaint to what became Ms 11 (with 5-S), but Adm. Kimmel had final say. It is reported that he disliked 5-S as a color to be used on "his" battleships and held out for a darker color. The switch by the Atlantic Fleet from 5-S to 5-N in a 20 October 1941 directive, was well received and in late November 1941, a destroyer ... USS FLUSSER (DD-368) ... was repainted from her evaluation 5-S Ms 11 scheme to the 5-N Ms 11 scheme. See the Speed-o-Gram document dated 21 November 1941 below. The "official" directive to repaint the Pacific Fleet to Ms 11 (with 5-N) was "dated" 16 December 1941. But, both a "draft" and the "official" final versions are both dated on 16 December 1941. I firmly believe in knowing now the bureaucracy worked in peacetime, that the decision for adapting 5-N happened a couple of weeks before that date. Likely after preliminary evaluation of USS FLUSSER painted in 5-N in late November-early December 1941. The generation of the official directive, would have been delayed by the actions on 7 December 1941.

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Specifically, for USS ARIZONA, she left drydock on 12 November 1941. No battleship was mentioned to be painted in 5-N for evaluation as of late November 1941. The only(?) known image of USS ARIZONA taken during her drydock period, see attached, doesn't appear to show her repainted as of the date of the photo on 8 November 1941. But, repainting was the last thing done prior to un-docking, so she could have been repainted ... or maybe just her hull to speed up getting her out of drydock and USS OKLAHOMA in. The crew could have been tasked to finish the job at a future date "as duties allowed".

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Compare with a photo of USS NEVADA and USS OKLAHOMA dated 3 November 1941, and a photo of USS RALEIGH taken on 9 December 1941, while she was painted in 5-S.

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I can believe that USS ARIZONA and maybe other battleships (but supplies of the new paints were in short supply, but was being applied to cruisers at PHNY), were "verbally" directed in a meeting to repaint the week prior to the attack on 7 December 1941. Now then, was or could USS ARIZONA have been in the process of repainting to 5-S or 5-N (the difference being only the amount of tinting mixed in) may never be known.

Finally, the only "known" USN 80-GK image that shows USS ARIZONA post-attack, likely taken in February 1941, is this one. Followed by a close-crop view of USS ARIZONA.

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I remember reading that document I think on this site possibly posted by Rick Davis.
Post Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Egilman wrote:
Arizona's next scheduled yard availability was for December in PSNY.


Quick note - this is actually untrue. Due to the amount of work at PSNS schedules had been pushed back and Arizona wasn't due to head there until spring at the earliest. That's another document I should post....
Post Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:06 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Yeah, that photo definitely shows the damage near the bottom of the hull. We simply can’t speculate yet that there was any damage above the waterline allowing us to jump to any 5-D or 5-S painting conclusions.
......


Well I'm not speculating, just reading the documents that have been posted and applying what they say....

All pacific fleet ships were ordered to repaint in measure 1, 5S on any yard availability. Arizona's next scheduled yard availability was for December in PSNY. The collision itself probably did not cause a sufficient amount of damage by itself to cause a repaint. What it did do was cause an emergency yard availability. At which point the orders in hand to repaint in measure 1, 5S kicked in...

So in respect to the standing orders to repaint, the collision caused the repaint earlier than it would have normally happened cause of the painting orders already in hand...

Besides, if the collision hadn't happened, the 'zona wouldn't have even been in PH when the attack took place, she would have been 4/5ths of the way to PSNS.... (still in Measure 1, 5D)

That's all I'm saying..... so arguments about how much damage was caused by the collision and whether or not it warranted a repaint are moot....

Not looking to cause argument, just laying out the only logical, plausible chain of events given the established events and documents in hand....

My view is the collision caused a yard availability, which caused the orders to repaint to be acted upon...
Post Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
For what it's worth, this damage was roughly centered on the forward half of the platform that extended outboard of the casemate guns. It's possible that the overhang of Oklahoma's bow at the main deck touched this platform, but all of the damage description in the documentation I have is for underwater damage.
Post Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Yeah, that photo definitely shows the damage near the bottom of the hull. We simply can’t speculate yet that there was any damage above the waterline allowing us to jump to any 5-D or 5-S painting conclusions.

The collision happened on Thursday October 23 while at sea. BATDIV 1 then returned to Pearl on Sunday October 26. According to USS Pennsylvania's deck logs USS Arizona stood in at 0548. Pennsylvania vacated her berth B-3 at 0625 so that Arizona could occupy that spot. Arizona moored there at 0700. Pennsylvania then moored alongside Arizona at 0806. At 0910 Arizona began transferring all her fuel to Pennsylvania. Then on Monday October 27 at 1030 the transfer of fuel stopped. She received 800,048,190 gals of fuel from Arizona. At 1325 Pennsylvania left her berth so that Arizona could be moved into the dry dock. At 1350 Arizona was transferred to the dry dock for repairs.
Here are some snippets from Pennsylvania's deck logs.

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I believe most of the damage was below the waterline due to the shape of Oklahoma's bow, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't distortion and rippling that extended to or above the waterline.

I did some digging and this isn't a great medium for what I was trying to do, so I'm going to create a new page on my site and link to it here with a general synopsis of the damaged areas.

One of the photos I came across is on Arizona's Navsource page and at the time I didn't spend a lot of time trying to determine which area we were looking at, but I'm fairly certain now that it's all below the waterline and the paint we're seeing is anti-fouling. More in a couple of days.....
Post Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Egilman wrote:

Given the collision damage that opened up a 30 foot split in her hull and a dent that was at least 10 feet deep by 50 feet long and 20 feet high, would necessitate the hulls repainting. and at that point 5D paint was in very short supply as production had been ceased 4 months earlier. Orders in hand mandated that any yard availability involving major repairs to a ship would necessitate a ships repainting which would have been in 5S Sea Blue as those were the orders we know were in hand.... (the orders into 5N Navy Blue weren't issued until after the attack

EG


Wasn’t the damage to the hull below the water line? No need for 5-D or 5-S down there.
Post Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I was just reading one of the articles over on the FB camo board and came across this from Ron posted a year ago... It answers the question of was any of the wreckage painted to preserve it....

Quote:
Ron Smith: One of the most important things to keep in mind, there was a strictly enforced order to do no painting on any of the sunken ships beyond red lead corrosion control. This was due to paint and labor shortages. For the few color photos and the color films if it isn't red and it was on a sunken ship that is the color it was the day of the attack.


So in essence you would know right away if something was painted to preserve it, and being red lead was used you would know it even in B&W photography....

Lots of interesting info there as well.....

It also lends credence to the Life Magazine shot as being accurate at least to it's base colors.... Naturally occurring color shift over time does not change a picture's base colors. It only effects the tint and hue according to the professionals I've been in contact with... (ie.. greens are still greens, reds are reds and blues are still blues, they may be a different shade of green, red or blue, from the original colors but they will still be the same base underlying color)
Post Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Egilman wrote:
And again thank you for being patient with all the emotional absolutists, they can be very trying at times....


It doesn't happen all the time but occasionally someone pisses me off in a way that motivates me to prove them wrong and that's what the flame wars back then did. I am personally keeping myself neutral now (my signature should explain why) but at the time I had some good friends in the "Blue Crew" and seeing how they got treated really turned me off (to be sure, their behavior wasn't always top shelf either) and since I had *some* documentation that refuted some of the arguments it seemed natural to put them in a place where everyone could read them and some people might STFU.

It also turned out in the early phase that I learned there was a ton about USN camouflage we still didn't know and it was a good project for me to take on to research when I could. There have been enough people, such as yourself, who have thanked me over the years that I know from many different ways that my time has been a good benefit to a lot of people, so I am content with that much even if we don't 100% solve Arizona's question.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Timmy C wrote:
I'm guessing the FB group in question is Warship Camouflage Research Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1938148576493719

It's private and by invite only, so could be why it didn't show up in your searches.


Thank You Timmy!!!

It helps to have the title to the group...

Yes it's a private group, you can apply for membership and they can chose to let you in or not....

I've applied, now awaiting approval.....

Thank you....
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm guessing the FB group in question is Warship Camouflage Research Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1938148576493719

It's private and by invite only, so could be why it didn't show up in your searches.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:02 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
I'm actually not looking for a communique that is from a ship. At this point I'm just hitting up all the likely spots looking for any snippet or fragment that I can as there were a lot of little things going on that's fun to find in general.

Ron Smith once told me over the phone that he had found a memo from Admiral Kimmel that ordered the battleships to keep enough 5-D for one repaint uf the hull, turn the rest in, and then repaint areas from the main deck to top of the funnels in 5-O Ocean Gray or 5-S Sea Blue "as needed" with no need to communicate this higher up the chain. This would explain why some ships have sections that look lighter than others. This is also somewhat in line with the graded schemes such as Measure 2 and 12, so it doesn't fail any logic test unless someone is applying extremely strict standards (i.e. "if there's no documentation found it never happened at all"). There was a point where he burned out on research and camouflage and mailed me copies of his research, but one of the two boxes he sent me got lost and never arrived. I wasn't able to find that note and it remains apocryphal until I can find it again, but that is a good portion of what is being discussed and examined in the Facebook group.

My only comment on it is that if there were supply problems with the new paints I would think that 5-O would be more likely as it took less pigment than 5-S or 5-N.


My guess Tracy is you would have better luck looking and searching around the yard notes and communiques specifically surrounding the hull repair if they still exist. with the orders in hand and they way orders were communicated back then I sincerely doubt there would be anything from the command that states the painting was finished.... If there is a smoking gun to resolve this it would be in the yard records of the hull repair.

I know that Kimmel (cincpac) and King (cinclant) each had sent their preferences to Adm. Robinson, Chief of the newly created Bureau of Ships, given their specific needs in the pacific and atlantic areas of operation. Kimmel wanting Measure 1 5S for the pacific fleet and King requesting Measure 2 graded for the atlantic fleet in early August the final response was the first revision of Ships-2 giving Kimmel his preference in Measure 11 and King his in Measure 12.... and Ships-2 was the final decision of where they were going, the experimentation was mainly over... Although Adm King did express a preference for a darker blue (which turned out to be 5N Navy Blue by increasing the tm paste in a 5 gallon bucket of 5U by 50% over 5S Sea Blue which Adm. Robinson made allowance for as a viable substitution in Measure 12.....

The information you got from Ron I've read before, (Kimmel's order to keep one complete repaint, I think it was back in August I believe just before the order to cease production took effect) I just have to go back thru my notes to see if I still have the reference to where I saw it... Will get back to you if I find it....

I can't seem to find that FB group, searching FB doesn't bring anything up relative to painting the Arizona..... shame I would have liked to read it.....

And again thank you for being patient with all the emotional absolutists, they can be very trying at times.... (personally I've admired your work for a long time)

EG
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:
A nice, calm, reasonable and measured argument. Refreshing!

I like how you lay the argument out - it's quite plausible.


Why thank you Martin, I don't have a dog in this debate so to speak but I have built the 'zona 7 times (the revell version) and I've been collecting data for the last two decades in preparation for probably my last build of her.... This time for myself.... (the banner/hobby boss/trumpeter version)

After three days reading the thread I figured that it would be nice to put everything in order, eliminate the non-essentials and take a dispassionate look at the issue and see how one fact relates to the other facts and maybe dispassionately clear some of the fog.... Once done, it does seem to lead to a supportable conclusion, and being an amature historian I like supportable conclusions.... (even if I don't have the "smoking gun")

My last step is to take the two pictures posted, the life magazine shot and it's "color corrected version" as posted here to a professional photo restorer and see what he has to say.... I have my opinions from other pics I've asked him about but I won't say until he actually examines them and tells me what he thinks.... I've learned to trust his work.... He agrees that trying to color grade B&W photography is a joke being played on the color graders minds..... (essentially they don't know what they are doing)

My position at this point is she was blue, probably most of her was blue to a point that makes little difference in the big scheme of things... I was a grey/black guy till i read this thread and did my own analysis of the evidence......

In a way I'm excited, but also sad that it has come to such an emotion filled divisive issue.... But in general, I see most models built for the last ten years or so being very blue... So, I guess there are many more that have read the evidence the same way I have.

The same an Don Pruel did 15 years ago and the survivors who were alive back then were brought to tears when they saw it, that says tons to me that they recognized it as it really was even if their specific recollections were not complete....

Again, thank you. The thread I believe has fulfilled it's purpose.....
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm actually not looking for a communique that is from a ship. At this point I'm just hitting up all the likely spots looking for any snippet or fragment that I can as there were a lot of little things going on that's fun to find in general.

Ron Smith once told me over the phone that he had found a memo from Admiral Kimmel that ordered the battleships to keep enough 5-D for one repaint uf the hull, turn the rest in, and then repaint areas from the main deck to top of the funnels in 5-O Ocean Gray or 5-S Sea Blue "as needed" with no need to communicate this higher up the chain. This would explain why some ships have sections that look lighter than others. This is also somewhat in line with the graded schemes such as Measure 2 and 12, so it doesn't fail any logic test unless someone is applying extremely strict standards (i.e. "if there's no documentation found it never happened at all"). There was a point where he burned out on research and camouflage and mailed me copies of his research, but one of the two boxes he sent me got lost and never arrived. I wasn't able to find that note and it remains apocryphal until I can find it again, but that is a good portion of what is being discussed and examined in the Facebook group.

My only comment on it is that if there were supply problems with the new paints I would think that 5-O would be more likely as it took less pigment than 5-S or 5-N.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
A nice, calm, reasonable and measured argument. Refreshing!

I like how you lay the argument out - it's quite plausible.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
I'm not a member as I don't have a Facebook account, but there's a Facebook group for Naval Camouflage where there has been discussion of the Pearl Harbor battle fleet camouflage recently, I understand. I'm pretty much staying to archival research to form my opinion, but obviously with Covid there's not likely to be movement on that front until next year at the earliest.


I understand that my friend, as a researcher you have to take that course....

Your probably looking for something like a yard communication/report that the painting was completed or not, I doubt that you will find a direct order to repaint given the directives you already found....

And thank you for your diligent efforts in uncovering what you already have....

EG
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:41 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
a survivor who was involved with the painting says painting was incomplete & not yet done above the 01 deck because of the attack.


Hi David, thanks for the response.

Your referring to Loren Bruener's statement when directly asked if the painting was done.... kinda as an afterthought..... I know from many interviews I have read from ships personnel of the period that a ships painting is never done especially during peacetime. They are constantly being repainted.... His response just prior to that question being asked was that his area was done but that he didn't know about the areas that were not his responsibility... that was his direct answer to being asked about the rest of the areas of the ship.... While in the group his statement that it was blue paint was unchallenged by the rest of the group. Distinctly because of the difficulty in covering the almost black 5D with the much lighter 5S....

I'm using a preponderance of the evidence judgment here where it seems like many are using a beyond reasonable doubt standard here...

I can understand wanting a final absolute answer which would probably take the form of some kind of document from ships force stating directly that the painting was completed...

I doubt that is ever going to be found. But I pose this from the lengthy discussion of witness reliability and how we cannot rely on muddled, decades old witness testimony on the one hand yet everyone seems to be hanging their hat on Loren Bruener's credibility for this ONE statement as an absolute...... Especially stacked up against all the other evidence which admittedly does not state with absolute clarity that the job was finished...

Hence my conclusion that there was a ton of blue paint on Arizona, the fact that she was repainted and in 5S is not in doubt. We may not have the absolute fact established from a document saying such as she was finished. But from the documents available, 5S was the only paint available to paint her in after repairing her damage, Measure 1 in that 5S were the orders in hand during her repair. (revised ships 2 came down during her repair changing Measure 1 to Measure 11 which was simply a change in base color from 5D to 5S) The testimony of the guys aboard (including Loren Bruener's) confirm that sufficient paint was brought aboard, the entire crew not standing regular watches were ordered to heave to for painting detail during those repairs, documents clearly stating that 5S was the only paint available, the damage being such extent that it would require a complete repaint, those orders were acted upon.

The preponderance of evidence says it was done in my opinion..... and no I cannot hang my hat on Loren Bruener's one answer to an off the cuff question about areas he clearly said were not his responsibility so he didn't know, his area was done was his direct answer. A very understandable response, given being trained to take care of your duties and not worry about others persons assigned duties.... I suspect many of the crew were just like him.... Their areas were done....

I can only come to the conclusion for me that she was finished in Measure 11, 5S, Sea Blue.

That is my opinion based upon the evidence we have in hand.

My only question was is my summary of what I've read over 119 pages correct?

The only remaining question is ....
"Was the USS Arizona's paint job in November after her collision with the Oklahoma, completed?"
.....the evidence of what that job was is already in hand....

And I agree that we do not know for sure and prior to her collision, she was in Measure 1, 5D, Dark Grey....

I hope this clears up what I was asking....

I don't want to drag up another argument just get a firm footing on the state of Arizona's paint as of the assembled information to date.....
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm not a member as I don't have a Facebook account, but there's a Facebook group for Naval Camouflage where there has been discussion of the Pearl Harbor battle fleet camouflage recently, I understand. I'm pretty much staying to archival research to form my opinion, but obviously with Covid there's not likely to be movement on that front until next year at the earliest.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
a survivor who was involved with the painting says painting was incomplete & not yet done above the 01 deck because of the attack.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:22 am

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