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Topic review - Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
I've made new drawings and updated the previous ones:
Nelson class as finished in 1927:
Attachment:
Nelson 1927.png
Nelson 1927.png [ 1.14 MiB | Viewed 66 times ]

In 1936:
Attachment:
Nelson 1936.png
Nelson 1936.png [ 1.2 MiB | Viewed 66 times ]

Nelson in 1940:
Attachment:
Nelson 1940.png
Nelson 1940.png [ 1.28 MiB | Viewed 66 times ]

Nelson in 1942:
Attachment:
Nelson 1942.png
Nelson 1942.png [ 1.39 MiB | Viewed 66 times ]

Nelson in 1945:
Attachment:
Nelson 1945.png
Nelson 1945.png [ 1.42 MiB | Viewed 66 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
....

This was the movie I was acutally trying the link

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060015143
....


I think that there is something dodgy about the order of the clips in this colour film (IWM MGH 4574) and its caption referencing Op Pedestal. For example at the 0.44 mark we see HMS Nelson in her disruptive camouflage pattern first worn in April 1942 and with a pom pom on B turret. Yet later, at the 2.28 mark when she is doing gunnery practice, the turrets and gun barrels are all in overall Home Fleet Grey and there is a UP launcher on B turret ie how she was during 1941. Then at the 5.07 mark we see HMS Lightning in overall Home Fleet grey. Lightning wore this during 1941 but by the Spring of 1942 she was in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme and was that way during August 1942 (Pedestal). More likely is that the views of Lightning in the film are during Op Substance July 1941. This photo is said to date to 23 July 1941 and shows Lightning in company with Nelson then:
Attachment:
Lightning 1941 7 23 b.jpg
Lightning 1941 7 23 b.jpg [ 17.29 KiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Indeed, Rodney has a few patches of MS3 that are greenish (not green though). In the above link she's in full colour at the 11 minute mark.

This was the movie I was acutally trying the link

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060015143

Nelson in full colour around 45s. The patterns have been matched with the currently best available data on what the official colours were.
Post Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
TZoli wrote:
So instead of green oriented was the colour scheme it was blue/dark grey oriented?

I'm afraid some people were mixing up Rodney and Nelson. Indeed Rodney had some greenish teint in his camo scheme, Nelson didn't.
Post Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 2:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060011111
Post Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:53 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
So instead of green oriented was the colour scheme it was blue/dark grey oriented?
Post Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
For the camouflage pattern I'd like to refer you to the latest versions using the paints available at that time.

Image

Image

Now, both Hood and Nelson were originally fitted with two Mk I pompom directors and these are very small; Hood's director was high up in the main structure and nearly impossible to spot in any photograph, so early photographs are not of much help. One source also mentioned Nelson was later fitted with 5 Mk IIs, however, my radar book in indicates that 4 type 282's were fitted in March 1942 (and these are fitted on pompom directors).

Attachment:
Nelson.jpg
Nelson.jpg [ 190.62 KiB | Viewed 370 times ]

This image (April 1942) shows two of these radars, just in front and just aft of the main mast?

Attachment:
IWM_A 30469.jpg
IWM_A 30469.jpg [ 137.19 KiB | Viewed 370 times ]

I find two just aft of the main mast, in front of the aft DCT, see type 282 antenna

Attachment:
IWM_A 15844.jpg
IWM_A 15844.jpg [ 124.92 KiB | Viewed 370 times ]

For Rodney: in the main superstructure

It's not uncommon that a pompom did not have a director; for the KGV-class the logical location for the fwd pompom in B turret was between the fwd HACS directors but were not always placed.
Post Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
I think I've found the missing Pom-Pom director positions:
In 1933-34 two octuple Pom-Poms were fitted in place of the Torpedo Director Towers abreast the funnels.
It does not state where did directors for these mounts were placed but I think it was on top of the bridge behind the 6" Director Control Towers
In 1940 an octuple Pom-Pom mounting was installed on the quartedeck and two in place of the aft 6" Director Control Towers. Again no statement for their directors placement
In 1941-42, an octuple Pom-Pom mounting was fitted on top of B turret
3 Mark III directors were also fitted: two on the mainmast and one on the aft end of the shelter deck I presume either on the platform just aft of the main director where the later aft 20mm Oerlikon will be. Also apparently 4 barrage directors were also added at the aft end of the superstructure, abreast and abaft of the mainmast, I think this was the location on top of boat storage structure and the aft platforms on the mainmast.
In 1944-45 refit at the Philadelphia Naval Yard, Pom-Pom directors were removed to provide space for Oerlikons so I presume the bridge superstructure ones the centreline aft one and the ones on the mainmast

Also I've made drawings of Nelson's 1945 and 1942 state I hope the colour scheme is correct:
1942:
Attachment:
Nelson 1942.png
Nelson 1942.png [ 1.4 MiB | Viewed 377 times ]

1945:
Attachment:
Nelson 1945.png
Nelson 1945.png [ 1.42 MiB | Viewed 377 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Hi TZoliI suspect that both Fwd & Aft where locally directed but I couldn't total count out that they weren't, I suspect Paralex errors may have made them bit inaccurate, with the 2ppr 8 barrel PP principal of operation (throwing as much stuff in the general location of a enemy ac as quickly as possible ) it wasn't through worthwhile fitting a director.
I may have to re-read Norman Friedman. - Naval Anti-Aircraft Guns and Gunnery to see if there any indication

graham wrote:
Hi TZoli
I have looked at all my photos/drawing and books I cant find any 2PDr Directors fitted for the fwd and aft 2pdr mountings, I happy enough with photos that I have looked through that they were never fitted

Graham


Interesting. Does this suggest they are locally directed? For the fantail one I an imagine the aft pair of directors would be used for that mounting but the turret-top one is very forward for the funnel ones! Though there should be enough space on top of the what I only guess is the Pom-Pom ammo storage structure on top of the 2nd 16" turret and behind the Pom-Pom mounting.
Post Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Thank you, I will fix my drawing than.

From R. A. Burt - British Battleships 1919-1945, page 336:
Quote:
1944–5: Nelson, as refitted for Eastern service, July 1944 to January
1945, main armament director position over conning tower removed. Light
AA guns increased by 4 quad mountings 40mm AA, some 2pdr directors
removed to make space for extra 20mm AA. LAA directors (283 RDF) were
above and abaft forward pair of 40mm AA mountings, port and starboard on
superstructure abeam and abaft mainmast and on platform on main tripod
legs. SL removed from main tripod legs to make way for LAA directors.
Internal arrangements modified for tropical service. Standard Admiralty
camouflage scheme painted up in Nelson only. Type 650 anti-missile
equipment fitted (late 1944), aerial on face of bridge.
1946: Some 20mm AA removed from both ships. Repainted all grey
(Nelson only), Rodney retained original camouflage to the scrapyard.
1947–8: Stripped of all small guns, aerials and general small fittings, etc.



Apparently there were directors for the centreline Pom-Poms or the mentioned removed Pom-Pom directors were re-located aft, on top of the boat equipment cabin and which should directed the funnel side Octuple Pom-Poms
Post Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 4:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
TZoli wrote:
Another question:
What is the accepted deck colour for around the conning tower? the level where the 40mm Single Pompoms, later the 12,7mm MG's were located pre-AA refit?
Is it just darker grey metal or some wood or even Linoleum?
This photo shows that level I think it was called the Conning Tower Platform:
Attachment:
fc677f80abf753223a856c5577545f82.jpg.b4df990aa2b06526bb7e686fa07da6a8.jpg

Attachment:
16_inch_gun_turrets_and_Unrotated_Projectile_launchers_on_HMS_Nelson_1940_IWM_A_1994.jpg

If you ask me: I would say Dark Grey painted metal. No Linoleum (Corticene!) for sure, then you would see brass strips to hold these down.

In theory also Semtex could be used, but I never read anything about Semtex on Rodney or Nelson.
Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 12:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Another question:
What is the accepted deck colour for around the conning tower? the level where the 40mm Single Pompoms, later the 12,7mm MG's were located pre-AA refit?
Is it just darker grey metal or some wood or even Linoleum?
This photo shows that level I think it was called the Conning Tower Platform:
Attachment:
fc677f80abf753223a856c5577545f82.jpg.b4df990aa2b06526bb7e686fa07da6a8.jpg
fc677f80abf753223a856c5577545f82.jpg.b4df990aa2b06526bb7e686fa07da6a8.jpg [ 402.19 KiB | Viewed 133 times ]

Attachment:
16_inch_gun_turrets_and_Unrotated_Projectile_launchers_on_HMS_Nelson_1940_IWM_A_1994.jpg
16_inch_gun_turrets_and_Unrotated_Projectile_launchers_on_HMS_Nelson_1940_IWM_A_1994.jpg [ 62.53 KiB | Viewed 133 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:30 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
graham wrote:
Hi TZoli
I have looked at all my photos/drawing and books I cant find any 2PDr Directors fitted for the fwd and aft 2pdr mountings, I happy enough with photos that I have looked through that they were never fitted

Graham


Interesting. Does this suggest they are locally directed? For the fantail one I an imagine the aft pair of directors would be used for that mounting but the turret-top one is very forward for the funnel ones! Though there should be enough space on top of the what I only guess is the Pom-Pom ammo storage structure on top of the 2nd 16" turret and behind the Pom-Pom mounting.
Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Mr. Church wrote:
From FB:
Attachment:
DragonNelson.jpg

Something about Dragon's hull shape doesn't look right to me: amidships the hull below the waterline doesn't seem right, when comparing to the bilge keel; additionally the shape below the waterline from the break water forward seems bulged unnecessarily...
Post Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2024 10:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Hi TZoli
I have looked at all my photos/drawing and books I cant find any 2PDr Directors fitted for the fwd and aft 2pdr mountings, I happy enough with photos that I have looked through that they were never fitted

Graham
Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
I have a question:
Nelson's 1944/45 state carried 6x Octuple Pom-Poms:
- On top of the 2nd turret
- A pair next to the funnel above and forward of the 2nd pair of 4,7" guns
- A pair behind the tripod above and behind of the 3rd pair of 6" turrets
- On the Fantail

Where were the Pom-Pom directors located at?
I've only found 4 on the drawings and photos and all of them are located on the aft part of the superstructure, close to the aft pair of Pom-Pom guns, one pair behind the aft rangefinder side by side and another pair just forward of said Pom-Pom on the boat equipment storage room. But were the two centreline mounts had their own directors?
Post Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Thank you, philgollin and EJF.

81542
Post Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
https://ontheslipway.com/hms-nelson-runs-aground-on-hamilton-bank/
Post Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:40 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
[quote="81542"]Hello "All,"

.

"... NELSON/RODNEY were a contravention and this appears to have affected the way that their handling was perceived in the Royal Navy. For those wishing to examine this further, I refer them to Page 13 of Raven A and Roberts J (1979) "Man o' War 3: Battleships RODNEY and NELSON:" (Arms and Armour Press: London): it would be interesting to know what the bridge watchkeepers of the big USN CVA(N)'s think, where their bridge superstructures are currently so far aft but that may be "Classified." ...

.

There are various internet claims regarding the poor handling of these ships at very slow speed, however in reality their captains do not seem to have had any complaints (ABC is quoted in a letter as saying that anyone who could sail a dinghy would have no problem with them.)

There was one big problem when manoeuvring in harbour when one went aground - HOWEVER - in the post-war RN text book the grounding was blamed on the very limited clearance between the ship's bottom and the thick mud which caused an excessive suction effect.

.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS Nelson & Rodney fans  Reply with quote
Thank you, David
Post Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:31 pm

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