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Topic review - Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans
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  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
I assume then it was likely to have been the 3-pounder QF Hotchkiss gun? Perhaps without the sights, as per these examples:

Image
Post Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 7:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Yes,saluting guns, according the plans. Interesting thing, what a waste of place and weight in 1940.
Post Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 4:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Does anyone know what King George V was mounting in 1940/41 on her forward superstructure? There are these two emplacements on either side at the lower platform level, and the forward of the two has something mounted on it - a signalling/saluting gun, maybe? The rear position appears to be empty.

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Photo from https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138033


It seems the equivalent position on the port side was empty, at least in January 1941... https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205137232
Post Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi 81542, thank you for your kind words, indeed I have seen documents from many archives and take their copyright conditions very seriously, theyve given me the opportunity to see such important historical items and i feel it incumbent upon me to respect their conditions of viewing. I do try to help if I can but can only give truncated detail which I hope is enough without betraying any copyright agreement.

The most interesting thing about the hits on Prince of Wales is that the damage report author seperated the hits into above and below water hits and numbered them from the bow aft. This means hit no1, the compass platform hit is the first above water hit on PoW starting from the bow, but not the first hit received by PoW, even though many accounts do state that it was.

The Captain of PoW, the Gunnery Officer and the damage report author all give the correct position of the first hit. I'm pretty sure I've got the sequence correct but it's a "guesstimate" and so not accepted wisdom.

Plus at least one early numbered hit comes from a completely different direction to the others, which would mean that the ship that scored that hit would need to have reversed course, fired, and then reversed course back again, which I'm pretty sure isn't recorded by anyone as happening.

Hopefully one day I may write a paper on these things and get permission to publish, but as with all these things real life gets in the way!

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Further to my Post of 3 Feb last and for those who may still be interested.

Garzke WH Jr and Dulin RO Jr; with line drawings by Webb TG (1980): "British, Soviet, French and Dutch Battleships of World War 2" published by Jane's Publishing Company: London and Sydney, ISBN 71060078X contains a number of photographs and drawings of the shell-fire damage suffered by HMS PRINCE of WALES during the Denmark Strait action between pages 177 and 209. These are attributed to "Royal Navy: HMS Excellent;" which means that they were Crown Copyright at the time and for all I know, may still be, which is probably why Cag has not chosen to splatter what he has all over the Net. Kudos to Cag for his scrupulousness: meanwhile, excuse the error in my post of getting the names of the authors of the book mixed up.

I am afraid that I only managed a quick look at the above Reference but can assure those interested that it is worth finding a copy to read.

Concerning the pictures by KevinD in his post of 3 Feb; showing the bomb damage suffered by the ship: this was actually suffered while the ship was fitting out at Cammell Laird, Birkenhead and not at Rosyth.

Re: the matter of "Boot Topping." I advise anyone with queries regarding this matter as it concerns ships of the Royal Navy to read the attachment to "Dick's" Post of 24 Jan 24 "Royal Navy ships' bottoms and boot topping 1936 - 1950" in the "Camouflage and Coatings" section of this site. It is an excellent piece of work and as good as it is likely to get.

81542
Post Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:06 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
From what I have read on the subject, you have to be careful interpreting "intent" on a wavy edge. The boot topping was usually a glossy paint to prevent things from sticking. As a result, the boot topping was often painted first, and the sides above and below the boot topping painted after. Less care was taken in keeping the line straight on the upper sides and the anti-fouling paint because they did not adhere well to the glossy boot topping paint. So wave action was expected to peel the overspray, ultimately straightening the demarcation line. At least, that was the theory I have read.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi Pascalemod, I've had a look at a number of images of Prince of Wales in drydock prior and post Denmark Strait and of King George V after completion and during repair after damage due to collision and as far as I can see both the top and bottom extremities of the boot topping line are straight with no undulations.

As for why we see this on other warships I'm afraid that's one for the experts, maybe wear and tear at the cross over point when at light load or just crew painting lower than normal during refit to add extra protection for spots of corrosion?

As for your PoW the boot topping is straight whilst she was in Home Fleet grey.

Hope that helps
Best wishes
Cag
Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:32 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
This is not Royal Navy obviously, but the same is seen on Royal Navy ships, including Hood in dry dock. Mind, not ALL have exhibited this, only some. Either in situ painting was good enoug and left, or images show ships BEFORE the clear straight line on low low was drawn. I dunno. Thoughts?

dick wrote:
Martocticvs wrote:
More general question: where people are seeing the lower boot topping edges as wavy, were they actually painted that way, or are we really just seeing the result of wave action wearing the paint away unevenly..?


Can you provide an illustration of the sort of wavy edges you are referring to?


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:32 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Martocticvs wrote:
More general question: where people are seeing the lower boot topping edges as wavy, were they actually painted that way, or are we really just seeing the result of wave action wearing the paint away unevenly..?


The intention should have been a straight horizontal at the light load level. Can you provide an illustration of the sort of wavy edges you are referring to?
Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
More general question: where people are seeing the lower boot topping edges as wavy, were they actually painted that way, or are we really just seeing the result of wave action wearing the paint away unevenly..?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 6:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All

Hi Pascalemod, ah sorry maybe we both got mixed up, but it's no problem. Yes that is pic of hit no7 the 8 inch or possibly 5.9 inch hit aft, this punctured the hull, hit the sloped part of the armour over the steering gear and ricocheted back out of the ships side.

Hit 6 was a similar hit but just snagged the wood cover plate on the side Armour and exploded in the officers cabins on the lower deck flooding that deck from the armoured bulkhead aft.

I'll take a look at pics I have of PoW in dry dock after her completion to see what her boot topping looks like and let you know,

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Cag wrote:
Hi All,

PaulC is correct, the Hood website did used to have images but they seem to have been removed, I think you may find something on the IWM website if you search for Prince of Wales or Denmark Strait battle damage as they do hold copies.

The National archives hold the damage report in which the images appear, its an interesting read and shows that the perceived wisdom of the sequence of hits on PoW is incorrect. Its assumed that the first hit on PoW was the compass platform hit as its hit no1 in the damage report, but its made quite clear that for the report the hits were separated into above water and below water hits and numbered from bow to stern.

So effectively hit no1 is the first above water hit found on PoW starting from the bow and working back, but not the first hit received by PoW in the battle.

The 15 inch underwater hit is classed as hit no5 in the report, photographs show the entry hole and then subsequent images of the hole from inside the hull etc.

The file also holds the bomb damage report and images Kevin posted above, unfortunately Pascalemod I'm not able to post an image from the report but as I say a search on the good old google or the IWM website might result in something.

Hope that helps a wee bit
Best wishes
Cag.


I think I was a bit off in naming it, it was supposedly the 8in shell from Prinz Eugen that hit the ship below water but just didnt explode. I was looking for exactly how the ships boot top looked below water (wavey or straight) as I plan to repaint my PoW lower hull grey and apply Sovereign Hobby decals for depth gauge, to complete the ship. Ive done it to Hood recently, to reflect the grey lower hull situation, and I believe PoW is now due for that as well.

The image I found recently in a Youtube video, but it is zoomed in. Sadly I cannot locate the original anywhere. Below is best I found.


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

PaulC is correct, the Hood website did used to have images but they seem to have been removed, I think you may find something on the IWM website if you search for Prince of Wales or Denmark Strait battle damage as they do hold copies.

The National archives hold the damage report in which the images appear, its an interesting read and shows that the perceived wisdom of the sequence of hits on PoW is incorrect. Its assumed that the first hit on PoW was the compass platform hit as its hit no1 in the damage report, but its made quite clear that for the report the hits were separated into above water and below water hits and numbered from bow to stern.

So effectively hit no1 is the first above water hit found on PoW starting from the bow and working back, but not the first hit received by PoW in the battle.

The 15 inch underwater hit is classed as hit no5 in the report, photographs show the entry hole and then subsequent images of the hole from inside the hull etc.

The file also holds the bomb damage report and images Kevin posted above, unfortunately Pascalemod I'm not able to post an image from the report but as I say a search on the good old google or the IWM website might result in something.

Hope that helps a wee bit
Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
pascalemod wrote:
There once was a picture of PoW in 1941 in dry dock after her battle with Bismarck. She had shown some damage to the hull where 15in shell stuck but didnt explode.

Does anyone know where to find this photo? I seemed to have had it but cannot find it! Was it here or somewhere else?


Pictures of PoW's battle damage, including the one you are referring to, were on the HMS Hood Association website - on the PoW Damage Report page linked from the Denmark Strait Research Materials page. But the photos are no longer there - seems they've been removed.

The only image there now is a graphic showing the locations of the hits, even though the introductoy text still refers to photos.

I wonder why....

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/history/denma ... amage1.htm
Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:07 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
81542 wrote:
Kevin,

I think that Pascalemod might be referring to photographs that I have a vague recollection of seeing years ago in one of the works by Guilin and Darzke (presumably the volume dealing with, "Allied" but not US battleships). It might be worth a try if he can find a copy. Otherwise, "Cag" is bound to know.

81542


Don't have my copy on hand 81' so cant say. And Guilin and Darzke eh? Methinks a slight slip of the keyboard there. :smallsmile: They be Dulin & Garzke, as I am sure you actually know. :wave_1:
Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 1:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Kevin,

I think that Pascalemod might be referring to photographs that I have a vague recollection of seeing years ago in one of the works by Guilin and Darzke (presumably the volume dealing with, "Allied" but not US battleships). It might be worth a try if he can find a copy. Otherwise, "Cag" is bound to know.

81542
Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
pascalemod wrote:
There once was a picture of PoW in 1941 in dry dock after her battle with Bismarck. She had shown some damage to the hull where 15in shell stuck but didnt explode.

Does anyone know where to find this photo? I seemed to have had it but cannot find it! Was it here or somewhere else?

I assume you may mean one of these?

Actually, my bad, as on second thoughts I believe this 'set' is from the bomb exploding next to her while in dry dock for those repairs you mention. Opps. :doh_1:


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
There once was a picture of PoW in 1941 in dry dock after her battle with Bismarck. She had shown some damage to the hull where 15in shell stuck but didnt explode.

Does anyone know where to find this photo? I seemed to have had it but cannot find it! Was it here or somewhere else?
Post Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Thank you Kevin. The copy of the Bucknill Report was clear enough to read.

The formation of the Bucknill Commitee, the Report, its circulation and some of the material in it caused the incumbent Director of Naval Construction, Sir Stanley Goodall some annoyance. For those seeking the reasons, details can be found on page 160 of DK Brown's "Nelson to Vanguard."

81542
Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Thank you Kevin!
Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2023 2:03 am

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