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Topic review - Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Garzke and Dulin are very vague with regards to the side protective system, which was still classified at the time of the book, 1976 and 1995. The only comment was that the last two ships (I'll and Ky) were modified as a result of Caisson tests and war experience. I would not expect any external expression of this.

Friedman: P 314 briefly mentions caisson tests in 1943 in connection with the design of the Midway Class carriers and a modification to the design of the torpedo protection scheme for Ill and Ky, too late to be incorporated in the first 4 Iowa's. An improvement of about 20% was expected.

Again no information as to any external expression.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
With regards to the knuckle aft mentioned earlier, this is shown on the body plan on page 149 in Garzke and Dulin at about 29' 6" above baseline. It extends a bit further aft than the original design as the hull contours were altered after model tests indicated a change in shafting.

T
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hank:

That was probably my reference, I think whatever the design changes were also incorporated in the Montana design. Possibly a change in the liquid loading scheme?

Back home tomorrow night late and can check it out.

Cheers: Tom
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
Quote:
The forward shell plating transitions to the heavier midships plate appear to be the same. However it is my understanding that Illinois and Kentucky had a somewhat different and supposedly improved anti torpedo arrangement. Whether or not this had any discernible external expression I do not know.


I think that Norman Friedman mentions something regarding the BB-65/66 design in his U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History, but my copy is at my shop - there possibly was some improvement in hull defense in these two ships that was a further change in their internal layout and structural design.
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
The forward shell plating transitions to the heavier midships plate appear to be the same. However it is my understanding that Illinois and Kentucky had a somewhat different and supposedly improved anti torpedo arrangement. Whether or not this had any discernible external expression I do not know. My guess is not...
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
same hull form as used on the other Iowas.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016606.jpg
Kentucky (BB-66) is moved from her building dock at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Virginia, circa 20 January 1950. The ship, completed only up to her second deck, was launched to clear the drydock, so that Missouri (BB-63) could undergo repairs there following her 17 January 1950 grounding. Note that Kentucky upper bow section is stowed on her deck, immediately in front of her forward barbette.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016608.jpg
Ship's bow being transported on a large crane barge from Newport News, Virginia, to the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, circa May-June 1956. It was used to repair Wisconsin (BB-64), which had been damaged in a collision on 6 May 1956.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/66.htm
Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:33 pm
  Post subject:  USS Kentucky  Reply with quote
Does anyone know if the USS Kentucky (USS Illinois) had a different hull form than the other four?

It was this picture that raised that question to me:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016630.jpg

In addition to lacking a bow chock, it looks like the sheer strake is much narrower at the top.
Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hey Jim
Sent you some photos
That knuckle shows up only in the right light.


James
Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:09 pm
  Post subject:  Hull Shape  Reply with quote
I was going back over the table of offsets data for the Iowa class. This data is rounded off to the nearest 1/16th of an inch. So, when you are dealing with constant slopes, the rounding gives steps in the data. I was doing an analysis to identify where things actually are straight. The plans indicate that the hull is sides are straight from FR54 to FR121. However, it is clear there are some other straight areas aft of FR121.

In doing this analysis, it appears that in the molded data, there is a slight knuckle in the hull between FR148 and FR186.

Attachment:
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Here is a view of some TOO points at the center of the section. The knuckle is at the 5th point from the top.

Attachment:
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 7.01.46 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 7.01.46 PM.png [ 20.6 KiB | Viewed 416 times ]


You can smooth this out but that requires creating an S curve below the knuckle point.

I have not seen a knuckle like this on any model nor on any hull lines from plans from other sources. However, it looks like it is there in the data.

It appears from the data that the area 46' 5" above the baseline to the top of the sheer strake is straight until the aft perpendicular. In the zone of FR186 and aft, the hull below curves smoothly into this straight area. At FR148 and forward the hull below also joins smoothly (and as you move forward the straight area starts to do deeper).

I was wondering if anyone had notice this on one of the ships. I suspect it would be hard to see because the sheer strake goes below this knuckle for its entire length.
Post Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
One thing to keep in mind is the tops of Turrets 2 & 3 had UNREP rigs on them, Turret 1 did not. Non-skid was applied to 2 & 3 for safety around the UNREP gear. Non-skid areas can appear darker depending on the light. On Missouri the UNREP fittings were picked out in white, and the turret edges were outlined in white. Turret 1 had a large "63" applied in white only.

Check the tops of the 5" mounts for the specific ship and time period you are modeling, the extent of the deck grey varied.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks guys, the fantail plating pattern makes sense now. :wave_1: there are a lot of mis-labelled pictures of the class and you can't see the hull number in all of them so it may have added to the confusion but I think I see the differences now.

For the turret tops, it definitely looks to me like sometimes they're deck grey and other times haze grey in service. Not talking about pictures of the ships as museums.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
All four Iowas have different patterns of non-skid on their fantails, it is an easy way to identify the ships once you know the patterns. Missouri had the most area covered, Wisconsin the least. New Jersey had a unique pattern of exposed teak surrounding Turret 3. The helo deck itself was slightly raised and had an inclined ramp on either side. On all four ships this was covered with non-skid, on Wisconsin it was the only area which was.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Vlad wrote:
Quote:
Possibly a silly question, but is there any consistency to the main turret top coating/colour on the modernised Iowas? I see pictures where they are hull colour, others dark grey, presumably anti-skid. Sometimes different on the same ship. What about the 5" mounts?

I'm also seeing a lot of variation in the extent to which the deck around No.3 turret and the helipad is planked (or not). Again, what's the rhyme and reason for this?


The std. painting scheme for all USN ships is Deck Gray on horizontal surfaces, Hull Gray (or Haze Gray as we used to call it) on vertical surfaces. Now that all 4 IOWAs are museum ships it doesn't surprise me that the individual ships (and pictures of those ships) show variations in the paint shades, etc. I don't know whether or not the caretakers are required to buy official Navy paints or use "equivalents". Keep in mind some photos come from when the ships were mothballed and thus the paints were possibly faded and obviously in need of maintenance. The 5"/38 dual gun mounts follow the same pattern.

As for the main deck areas around Turret 3 - NEW JERSEY (being the 1st of the 4 ships to be refurbished in 1981-82) has a different deck plating pattern than the other 3 ships. This is the metal deck plating that was installed to accommodate the storage of additional helicopters and some say to cut down on deck maintenance. Personally, I don't think that (maintenance) was a legitimate or factual reason for the plating being installed. I am not sure that the other 3 ships have the same or also different plate patterns. You would need to compare overhead photos of each one to verify this. Variations may also be due to local shipyard changes necessitated by ???

Hope this helps,

Hank
Post Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Possibly a silly question, but is there any consistency to the main turret top coating/colour on the modernised Iowas? I see pictures where they are hull colour, others dark grey, presumably anti-skid. Sometimes different on the same ship. What about the 5" mounts?

I'm also seeing a lot of variation in the extent to which the deck around No.3 turret and the helipad is planked (or not). Again, what's the rhyme and reason for this?
Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
chuck wrote:
Does anyone know if the radar on the Mk57 Director Missouri carried in 1945 is ranging only unit, or does the director have the ability to acquire target without visual help and is thus a true blind fire system?


This suggests it was not a primarily a blind fire system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_HUZSk8c2c

But it could do blind firing.
Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Does anyone know if the radar on the Mk57 Director Missouri carried in 1945 is ranging only unit, or does the director have the ability to acquire target without visual help and is thus a true blind fire system?
Post Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks much. That must be a tight squeeze.

I am also looking for some pictures of the bow chock from above where it intersects with the bulwark. That would have to be on the New Jersey or Missouri because the Iowa and Wisconsin have this area covered up.

I am curious about how the Jack staff matches up with this and the shape of the pipe from the top.
Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Here is a photo of the sand locker location.
The round hatch is the cover for the locker

Image


James
Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
I found a photograph from the interior of the New Jersey showing the "sand locker" just below the main deck at the bow. The only apparent access to this area is a "scuttle" in the main deck located on the port side and it appears to be just behind the very first frame on the ship.

My guess is it would be slightly aft and to the left of the bow chock; maybe 2' off the centerline. From the inside, it looks like a squeeze through opening.

Does anyone have a picture of this opening? The NJ does not allow you to go up to the bow. I have photos of the Wisconsin of this area but they seem to have missed this opening.
Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
B2010,

Nice rendering, etc. but I'm talking mainly about the "art" of quality drafting work - the CAD drawings I produce 40 hrs/week on MicroStation do not have the artistic character of those old vellum drawings - and it isn't needed for the P&ID drawings I create for building a biotherapeutic fractionation facility or Process Chiller addition. But, something is lost when you don't put your own creative abilities into a drawing - and computers can't do it for you.

I agree that leaning over the drafting table in the '70s producing elec. flow sheets and logic diagrams for an anti-ballistic missile systems maintenance manual was hardly a "eureka" moment, but more something needed that paid the bills. I simply appreciate the drawings from the past that showed the Talents of that particular draftsman.

When I get my workshop built and fitted out, I will have my old drafting table/parallel bar/implements all in place even though next to it will be my desktop w/MicroStation v8i loaded for bear!!!

Getting back to the BGP plans - the 1931 draughts of PENNSYLVANIA were much more artistic in nature than the later 1940's era warship BGP plans we frequently talk about. So, even then things were becoming simplified to expedite the quantity needed over the quality expected.
Post Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:36 pm

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