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Topic review - Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
RandyM -

As is the case with many other facets of MISSOURI & NEW JERSEY, these two IOWAs are similar in their construction and I'll maintain once again that this was due in part, to the local shipyard and it's ability at the time of construction to purchase materials and equipment which may have differed from one of the other shipyards also building an IOWA class ship.

Yesterday, while otherwise unoccupied timewise, I searched for any known photos, documents, etc. regarding the 20mm single mount and with the exception of the original drawing that you provided, could not find any official drawings/details of these pedestals with the additional "foot rest". Still looking...

Hope this helps,

Hank
Post Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
They are definitely really there - the first queue for me was photos of the Builder's model - they are very clearly on that ship, and there is just no way the model makers would have made that sort of mistake that many times. I agree, there are not many photos of 20mm mounts with the pedestal visible on 63: however I did find three which indisputably show this feature, as well as other photos of 61 which indisputably show mounts without it.

Very odd, and now of course it is gnawing at me: why are they there, and what are their dimensions?

Thanks all for the input!
Randy
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hank

Great photo research!

Cheers: T
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
OK, no mistaking the modified pedestals on the 20mm on this photo of MISSIOURI:
Attachment:
BB-63 Main Deck Aft #F1112C214 - resized.jpg
BB-63 Main Deck Aft #F1112C214 - resized.jpg [ 169.71 KiB | Viewed 72 times ]


And, also in a similar photo of NEW JERSEY:
Attachment:
BB-62 Turret 3  Reclining Tests 06-24-45 #3101-45 resized.jpg
BB-62 Turret 3 Reclining Tests 06-24-45 #3101-45 resized.jpg [ 151.78 KiB | Viewed 72 times ]



Hope this helps,

Hank
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Could be a shadow as well. Maybe with the original photo/negative one could pull the shadow detail out. Maybe Missouri has especially short sailors? I would think that the Pedestal would be designed to allow for full elevation range manipulation by a "standard issue" sailor. Though maybe not, the F4U didn't have adjustable rudder pedals and shorter pilots had to add wooden blocks!

Randy: you could always take the cats to the "Farm"....
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:37 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Well, after much searching I did find one possible photo of NEW JERSEY showing the similar type of pedestal. Once again, MO and NJ had a few more similarities between themselves as did WISKY and IOWA.

I have made a clip from photo #80-G-244433 showing the port side 20mm battery - it's the middle mount - seems to show the additional foot rest that RandyM is talking about:
Attachment:
BB62 port 20mm battery_1.JPG
BB62 port 20mm battery_1.JPG [ 26.58 KiB | Viewed 79 times ]

Comments, etc. welcome as usual. It certainly would be nice to find documentation on this item.

Hope this helps,

Hank
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
When you look for one, the 20 mm mounts are hard to find. Didn't see a single clear photo of one in the entire Stillwell Missouri book!
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
18-21 year olds are a bit more flexible than those approaching some degree of geezerhood. The adrenaline flow while trying to stop an oncoming aircraft at 20 mm ranges they wouldn't even notice. Most likely something added at a yard period at the request of the Captain.

Interesting!
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
but the gunner will be higher up so that the barrel would be pointing on a downward angle.
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:36 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
David... thanks for the reply. Was wondering if it is a step/stand of some sort. But if you were to visualize someone standing on that plate with their shoulders in the rests - even if they were balancing on the tips of their toes/boots, their body would be at a nearly 45-degree angle, which to me seems extremely awkward.

I've read thru all the available OP documents and especially OP909, which deals specifically with the different versions of 20mm mounts. None of them reference this addition. Yet it was clearly added to all of Missouri's 20mm guns. Curious.
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
I don't think it is a splinter shield but an aid for the gunner to get more height so that he can angle the front of the gun barrel downward more to get surface skimming aircraft.
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:07 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hi all...

LOOOOOoooooooonnnnng time no post here. I changed scales for my project and have become absorbed in the new build, and have been more active on a different board. Sadly, one of my cats caused my 1/200 Missouri to fall four-feet onto hard tile floor (just the hull, and this is a different cat than the one that got my Boston, else I'd have one fewer cats). There is some damage, but - surprisingly - the grafted-in part came through unscathed.

I have a couple specific questions regarding 20mm mounts on BB63. After scrutinizing a LOT of photos, it appears that the mounts on Missouri differ from those on Iowa in at least one very significant area: Missouri's mounts have what appears to be a circular splinter (ricochet?) shield mounted horizontally about a third of the way up on the pedestal. Iowa's mounts do not have this feature - at least in the photos I have. I have not looked at photos of 62 or 64 yet.

Questions: does anyone a) know what these actually are, and b) does anyone have actual dimensions for them? See drawing below for an idea of what I'm talking about.

Hope you all have been doing well!
Randy


Image
Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Garzke and Dulin are very vague with regards to the side protective system, which was still classified at the time of the book, 1976 and 1995. The only comment was that the last two ships (I'll and Ky) were modified as a result of Caisson tests and war experience. I would not expect any external expression of this.

Friedman: P 314 briefly mentions caisson tests in 1943 in connection with the design of the Midway Class carriers and a modification to the design of the torpedo protection scheme for Ill and Ky, too late to be incorporated in the first 4 Iowa's. An improvement of about 20% was expected.

Again no information as to any external expression.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
With regards to the knuckle aft mentioned earlier, this is shown on the body plan on page 149 in Garzke and Dulin at about 29' 6" above baseline. It extends a bit further aft than the original design as the hull contours were altered after model tests indicated a change in shafting.

T
Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hank:

That was probably my reference, I think whatever the design changes were also incorporated in the Montana design. Possibly a change in the liquid loading scheme?

Back home tomorrow night late and can check it out.

Cheers: Tom
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
Quote:
The forward shell plating transitions to the heavier midships plate appear to be the same. However it is my understanding that Illinois and Kentucky had a somewhat different and supposedly improved anti torpedo arrangement. Whether or not this had any discernible external expression I do not know.


I think that Norman Friedman mentions something regarding the BB-65/66 design in his U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History, but my copy is at my shop - there possibly was some improvement in hull defense in these two ships that was a further change in their internal layout and structural design.
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
The forward shell plating transitions to the heavier midships plate appear to be the same. However it is my understanding that Illinois and Kentucky had a somewhat different and supposedly improved anti torpedo arrangement. Whether or not this had any discernible external expression I do not know. My guess is not...
Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
same hull form as used on the other Iowas.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016606.jpg
Kentucky (BB-66) is moved from her building dock at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Virginia, circa 20 January 1950. The ship, completed only up to her second deck, was launched to clear the drydock, so that Missouri (BB-63) could undergo repairs there following her 17 January 1950 grounding. Note that Kentucky upper bow section is stowed on her deck, immediately in front of her forward barbette.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016608.jpg
Ship's bow being transported on a large crane barge from Newport News, Virginia, to the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, circa May-June 1956. It was used to repair Wisconsin (BB-64), which had been damaged in a collision on 6 May 1956.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/66.htm
Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:33 pm
  Post subject:  USS Kentucky  Reply with quote
Does anyone know if the USS Kentucky (USS Illinois) had a different hull form than the other four?

It was this picture that raised that question to me:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016630.jpg

In addition to lacking a bow chock, it looks like the sheer strake is much narrower at the top.
Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa class (BB-61) fans  Reply with quote
Hey Jim
Sent you some photos
That knuckle shows up only in the right light.


James
Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:09 pm

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