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Topic review - Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Anchor capstans  Reply with quote
Hi, does anyone know how the anchor capstans on Scharnhorst & Gneisenau were painted. I have Kageros drawings in 3D which shows them as black and white stripes. Other sources show red/white green/white as per Bismarck on which
Kagero and Draminski s AOS agree. I would have thought these things would be the same throughout the Kriegsmarine, or maybe they were changed at some time? I've looked at other people's models, but some are one way, some the other.
I would be interested to know how they are in the Scharnhorst AOS.

I think I didn't look hard enough...there is a youtube video of the ship and 10 seconds in shows the capstans in colour . www.schlachtschiff scharnhorst then the video : schlachtsciff Scharnhorst und Gneisenau versenken ....
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:48 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Hello everybody,

@ RoyMac,

you got it right and congratulations for your clever evaluations of the Scharnhorst last camouflage most recent evolution studies.

Not only I have helped Stefan Draminski realizing his wonderful last book on Scharnhorst, but a similar 3D rendering of the Scharnhorst has been made for my ( with R. Gehringer as co-author ) 5th and last book about the Tirpitz.

Obviously we have used the last set of information available from the photos taken on the second half of 1943.

Feel free to ask anything you may need and ... happy modeling.

Bye Antonio :smallsmile:



Many thanks Antonio

I will sit down and try to figure out the various colours in the scheme...I'm presuming I cannot scan and repost part of the AoTS book for copyright reasons but would like to describe the scheme elements and check with you that I have the various areas/colours correctly identified

:thumbs_up_1:
Post Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
details are in the new "Anatomy of the Ship, Scharnhorst" book.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=318521
Post Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Hello everybody,

@ RoyMac,

you got it right and congratulations for your clever evaluations of the Scharnhorst last camouflage most recent evolution studies.

Not only I have helped Stefan Draminski realizing his wonderful last book on Scharnhorst, but a similar 3D rendering of the Scharnhorst has been made for my ( with R. Gehringer as co-author ) 5th and last book about the Tirpitz.

Obviously we have used the last set of information available from the photos taken on the second half of 1943.

Feel free to ask anything you may need and ... happy modeling.

Bye Antonio :smallsmile:



Antonio - do you have links to your books or can post an image you referred to as "the latest"?
Certainly a lot of confusion for me, as I am also about to paint Scharnhorst in her as-sunk camouflage.
Post Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Hello everybody,

@ RoyMac,

you got it right and congratulations for your clever evaluations of the Scharnhorst last camouflage most recent evolution studies.

Not only I have helped Stefan Draminski realizing his wonderful last book on Scharnhorst, but a similar 3D rendering of the Scharnhorst has been made for my ( with R. Gehringer as co-author ) 5th and last book about the Tirpitz.

Obviously we have used the last set of information available from the photos taken on the second half of 1943.

Feel free to ask anything you may need and ... happy modeling.

Bye Antonio :smallsmile:
Post Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Dear All

I've posted this in the paint scheme/camouflage section for Scharnhorst thread as well put posting here just in case that one has 'died'.

I'm late to the Scharnhorst party but I'm just about to start in on my Dragon 1/350 Scharnhorst and intend to paint her in the final scheme. I've noted Antonio Bonomi's in depth stuff and excellent renderings of the Ostfront scheme. I've also just bought the Draminski AoTS book.

The book's introduction thanks Antonio for his help in putting the book together.

Here's the thing...

The Ostfront scheme on pages 72/73 differs from the most recent renderings I have from the internet attributed to Antonio. This is particularly noticeable around the bridge/forward superstructure, funnel and Anton and Bruno areas and the fact that the bow and stern areas appear light grey rather than off white.

Just wondered if the version shown in AoTS was in fact the result of the latest research by Antonio and/or whether it is considered as definitive as possible at this time?

Many Thanks
Post Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Frank,

Re: You post of 1.22pm

Your effort doesn't look that bad! Keep it up!
Post Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
I wonder if you can "flick" the bristles of your brush (using fingers or a toothpick) and let those flying specks create the fleck effect?
Post Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Dan Banks wrote:
Hello Frank, just wondering how your “fleck” painting was coming.


Its not coming out as well as it could, but this is mostly due to my lack of (or much atrophied) skill. So, I'm not terribly disappointed and can live with it. Its not like I'll be entering it into any contests or placing it on public display, LOL.

As for technique, I've been trying pretty much everything "Guest" mentioned: I dabbed with a short bristled brush, splotched with a small diameter brush, scumbled and sprayed a fine mist from a distance. I did a bit of all of this on some pieces...the hardest part (for me) is consistency...its too dark here, too pale there, etc. Very tricky thing for this size of a model (well, for me).

You can see what I'm talking about in the following photo...bridge seems much lighter than the funnel and rear superstructure (but its less pronounced in person). Also be advised that I have not yet removed some washes nor have I added the railings...I opted to do these afterwards due to the spotching technique knocking things off the model. That's a mid 1930s Hood in the background. She's incomplete as well, but she does have the correct brown shelter deck and grey antifouling (no red for Hood):

Attachment:
IMG_6447[67284].jpg
IMG_6447[67284].jpg [ 137.04 KiB | Viewed 661 times ]

Note: I edited this post to replace the original image with a larger variant and a couple of comments.

I'm starting to get burnt out on the Cerberus project though, so its in real danger of being shelved for a while...I see a zeppelin (USS Macon) that has my name on it! Of course, maybe I'll go back to Bismarck...at least her 24 May 1941 paint scheme is rock solid and easy to replicate. Then again, maybe I'll go for the original raider next...the Viking long ship needs to be completed (trying to determine what colour to paint her gunwales, etc.
Post Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Dan,

The scheme was probably applied simply, by German matelots just dabbing or short stroking a loaded two inch (or similar) paint brush onto the lighter or darker surface: rather time consuming. That would work at a scale of 1:1 but it would be difficult to achieve the right effect at small scales. "Scumbling" could be tried but it is likely to be impossible to control the size of the "dots." One might also try an almost dry, short bristled brush "jabbed" on or a fine spray applied from a distance.
Post Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Hello Frank, just wondering how your “fleck” painting was coming. I have tried it before on small models, Neptune’s 1/1250, and Tamiya’s Prinz Eugen. Neither turned out well. Trying to paint with a small tip brush, like dots, didn’t look right. I did get a better result with an airbrush on a 1/350 PE, but I can’t remember exactly how I did it. It would be interesting to know how the Germans actually did it. Most books refer to it as sloppily applied, but what was the process? Few left to tell. Looks kind of like it was applied with a mop?
Post Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Frank,

The best photos I have seen of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau's Brest and Operation Cerberus camouflage schemes (apart from the German Naval Camouflage book already mentioned above) are in the Warship Pictorial books number 36 and 39:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/books-plans/warship-pictorial/wp-36/cw-review.html

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/books-plans/warship-pictorial/wp-39/wp-review.html

Of course there may be additional German language publications that I am not aware of?

It is a camouflage scheme that interests me also as I intend to model it at some point. It is a dockyard camouflage intended for use while in drydock or moored at a quayside to blend unto the landscape behind. It seems to be very sloppily applied and not applied at all to not normally visible parts of the ship like the inboard sides of the secondary turrets etc. I presume the Kriegsmarine top brass knew this at the time but could not repaint the ships into a camouflage more suitable for at-sea conditions. As to do so would be a surefire indication to local spies and to British Intelligence that a mission was imminent. And the Germans went to great lengths to conceal the true destination and the departure date.

The fourth photo you posted above is sometimes described as being the departure for Operation Cerberus. But that to me seems unlikely. The ships departed Brest around 22:00 on February 11th 1942, at which time of the year it would have been pitch dark in Northern France. And once out into the Channel the ships worked up to 28 knots and would not have been steaming slowly behind a 'Sperrbrecher' as appears to be the case in the photo. I'd guess it was taken beforehand during one of the brief working up sorties off the French coast before Operation Cerberus. The camouflage should be pretty similar though.

All in all it is a far from pretty camouflage scheme, but a very interesting and historical one nonetheless.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
81542 wrote:
I can't provide any precise answers to your last post but I would advise you to get hold of a copy of Leon and Asmussen's
(L and A) "German Naval Camouflage Volume 2 1942 - 1945." Page 43 shows port and starboard side views of the "Cereberus" scheme for SCHARNHORST in colour. Within the constraints of the scale of the images, they give a good idea of the extents and limits of the various areas with and without "flecking."


Many thanks 81542!
That appears to be a very nice reference/source.

All the best,

Frank
Post Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:32 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Frank,

I can't provide any precise answers to your last post but I would advise you to get hold of a copy of Leon and Asmussen's
(L and A) "German Naval Camouflage Volume 2 1942 - 1945." Page 43 shows port and starboard side views of the "Cereberus" scheme for SCHARNHORST in colour. Within the constraints of the scale of the images, they give a good idea of the extents and limits of the various areas with and without "flecking."

The paint scheme seen, by the way, appears to be the one applied while the ship was in Brest as a "harbour" camouflage scheme.
With the exception of painting the crowns of the main and secondary armament gun houses what I will call a shade of "cyan" and enhancing the close range AA armament, no other changes appear to have been carried out specially for the "Dash." That said, a more knowledgeable German may know differently.

Concerning the shades/hues of paint employed, "there's the rub" as the Bard of Avon would say. L and A quote a number of German archival sources concerning the matter but it is probably easier to say that they also refer to the work carried out by Short and Snyder in this regard: at least in Volume 1 of their work on the subject. Short and Snyder produced "chips" for the paint used and I believe, a commercial range: Sovereign Hobbies may do the same. I suppose that you could use the illustration in L and A as a guide and mix your own, while remembering the proviso that the published shades shown may differ from the actual.

81542
Post Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans! -  Reply with quote
As mentioned a while back in an earlier post, my old Tamiya 1/700 Scharnhorst (built to represent the Feb 1942 Channel Dash/Operation Cerberus) has given up the ghost and I'm interested in replacing it with the new Flyhawk kit (using elements of both the 1940 and 1943 kits).

In the earlier post I had asked if anyone had any ideas as to the specific shade of blue used for the turret tops during the Channel Dash. Mr Church noted that since Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had both previously used other vibrant aerial recognition colours, a vibrant blue wouldn't necessarily have been out of the question. That made perfect sense to me. So, I'm thinking of using a slightly muted/dulled Tamiya C-14 for my "turmdecken."

This leads me to the next obvious set of colour questions: do we have any idea what her base hull and superstructure colours would/should have been by February 1942 and do we know the extent of "flecking" (the mottled-looking dark “splotches”) on her superstructure?

1. Hull Colour- I assume she maintained a base colour of Dunkelgrau 51 (with a dark grey "stripe" down each side and numerous vertical streaks (I'm assuming these were due to weathering)?

2. Superstructure Colour- I know both she and her sister had once used Hellgrau 50, but in some photos during/after the Channel Dash the vertical surfaces seem a tad dark to me. I'm not referring to the actual "flecks" but the base colour beneath/behind them. I realise it could be the film and exposure of course.

3. Flecks- These seem to have been dark grey (like the "stripe" on the hull), but there seems to be some confusion as to the extent of the "fleck" usage aboard Scharnhorst. Some colour drawings (such as the one from Squadron's old "Kriegsmarine" publication by Stern) show flecks only in certain places (i.e., http://www.kbismarck.com/scharn.gif or http://www.steelnavy.com/images/OS%20Scharnhorst/Scharn3434SchCol42.JPG , whereas others show the entire superstructure as being covered (i.e.,https://rcwarshipcombat.com/media/camo4.3801/full?d=1477948694). Perhaps the latter ones are more based on observations of Gneisenau though, because from what I've seen in the Cerberus movie films and stills, it seems that Scharnhorst was “less flecked”...something more along the lines of the Squadron drawing or the first two examples above. Of course, maybe I've not seen everything or am using poor quality materials and am completely off-base...thus this post.

I realise I'm probably not making much sense and that pictures speak louder than words (sometimes), so here are some photos:

Attachment:
cerberus-CT2.jpg
cerberus-CT2.jpg [ 81.17 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]

Above- We can see the forward bridge and conning tower...no flecks. The grey (red question mark) seems a bit too dark (to me) to be Hellgrau 50. If its not Hellgrau 50, then what is it? Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Attachment:
cerberus-CT3.jpg
cerberus-CT3.jpg [ 70.08 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]

Above- A VERY poor screen cap showing the same area...in this view we see that there are no "flecks" on the front of the bridge. Same question as above (but paraphrased): Is this (red question mark) hellgrau 50 (but in shadow or dark due to film/camera settings) or some other grey?

Attachment:
cerberus-CT4.jpg
cerberus-CT4.jpg [ 101.28 KiB | Viewed 690 times ]

This is another view of the supposed Cerberus film. In this view we can see that the lower bridge and bridge base are monotone grey whereas the outer bulwarks and bridge tower itself are flecked.

Attachment:
cerberus-CT.jpg
cerberus-CT.jpg [ 81.33 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]

Above- I think this may also be from Cerberus. In this view we can see some flecks on "Bruno" and the bridge side, but the conning tower is plain. I do see something odd going on (red question marks) at the rear of the conning tower though. Its as though someone painted a darker grey over a lighter grey (or vice versa). The lighter colour (which is what I'd expect for Hellgrau 50) is also similar to that shown outboard. Does anyone have any clue as to what's going on here?

Attachment:
Cerberus-after1.jpg
Cerberus-after1.jpg [ 173.33 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]

Above- This is supposedly just after the completion of the mission. Its a frame from a film that pans up and right showing some of the crew. We can see a dark (presumably flecked) AAA gun, a light grey side to one of the secondary guns (not sure if its a grey or blue bit though, and then we see flecks on the side/rear bulwarks of the bridge (bruckendeck?) and director. The bridge base (oberes mastdeck?) and actual side bulkheads of the lower bridge (both red question marks) seem monotone...but again, they seem rather dark for Hellgrau (at least to me). Is this simply shadow, poor exposure or is it a darker grey (perhaps instead of flecks, they used a solid colour)?

Attachment:
cerberus-RS.jpg
cerberus-RS.jpg [ 84.22 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]

Above- ThIs is supposedly during the mission. Its obvious that the vormars, funnel and lower mainmast are flecked. I see flecks on the side of one of the secondary turrets as well. I also see something going on (red question mark) around the lower rear superstructure...if that's not paint then perhaps some sort of netting (though it seems that might be a safety hazard). Thoughts anyone?

Many thanks in advance. I'm definitely out of my comfort zone with this one but I'm hoping someone has something they can share (even if the correct answer truly is "we dont really know." Goodness knows, its that way for certain aspects of Hood, so I can believe it being that way with Scharnhorst as well. Speaking of Hood, if any of you have camo questions related to the old girl, please pop over to the Hood thread and fire away!
Post Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
NigelR32
no mate im saying that scharnhorst bismarck both have 3 shafts but bismarck has the same number of openings both sides bismarck scharnhorst should have 2 major openings starboard and 1 to port
gary r
Post Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Dan Banks wrote:
Hey Nigel, Scharnhorst, Bismarck and Tirpitz all had similar bow configurations after they were fitted with Atlantic bows. Their bows had a little bit of flare at the deck level to accommodate the fairleads, and hawse opening for the bow anchor. Gneisenau had no bow anchor and the fair leads were two grooves at the point of the bow. This made the plan view of GN sharper, but made the round down look more like an Iowa, as you’ve stated, from side view. I have Scharnhorst coming, so I havent seen for sure, but I would bet they used the plans for GN, and assumed it would be the same for SN. Looking forward to checking it out



Good to hear Dan, thank you.

I made a new video tonight and gave you a shout out.
Post Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Hey Nigel, Scharnhorst, Bismarck and Tirpitz all had similar bow configurations after they were fitted with Atlantic bows. Their bows had a little bit of flare at the deck level to accommodate the fairleads, and hawse opening for the bow anchor. Gneisenau had no bow anchor and the fair leads were two grooves at the point of the bow. This made the plan view of GN sharper, but made the round down look more like an Iowa, as you’ve stated, from side view. I have Scharnhorst coming, so I havent seen for sure, but I would bet they used the plans for GN, and assumed it would be the same for SN. Looking forward to checking it out
Post Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
Dan Banks wrote:
Watched your video and you mention that the hull is imprinted with Gneisenau. This may be the cause of the bow issue, as she and Scharnhorst had different bow shapes. I think your fix for Scharnhorst’s bow will work as long as the cutting edge does not end up to blunt and wide. After reshaping, the bow needs to be sanded to a sharp edge, so as not to be too blunt. Don’t know about the prop bulges, the could have been reshaped some after the torpedo hit on her by Acasta during the battle with Glorious


Thank you so very much for putting this to bed for me Dan.

So.. Are we saying that Scharnhorst NEVER had that Bow form and went straight from vertical to Atlantic Bow with "pointed" stem. Your opinion on the bulges also makes perfect sense! Think I'll go with the AOTS book on this one, yeah, it may not be 100% but it'll be closer than it currently is.

I must say, I am very surprised that Trumpeter got this wrong :lol_3: :lol_3:
Post Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans!  Reply with quote
bismarck builder wrote:
guys
bismarcks water intakes must be wrong he only had 3 shafts so 2 s/board and 1 port same as it shows on the scharnhorst plans
cheers
gary r


Sorry.. I don't understand??

Bismarck has 3 shafts

Scharnhorst has 3 shafts

Are you implying that all the plans we have of Bismarck are also wrong??
Post Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:13 pm

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