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Topic review - Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
There is good information on the Type P Catapult and its operation on the NavSource online archive, "Instructions for Operation of Catapult Type P"

David
Post Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
Since there seems to be a lot of question and interest in USN Catapults lately, there is a good summary by Dr Friedman in his Aircraft Carrier Design History book. Surprisingly, he covers catapults for not only Aircraft Carriers (there was some overlap), but gives a summary of the catapults installed aboard the battleships and cruisers. Not a lot of technical data on the battleship-cruiser catapults, but there is a listing of the "Type A" - Compressed Air and "Type P" Gun Powder catapults and at least general idea of which units had specific catapults installed and when. It is kind of interesting that the "Type P Mk VI", the type used on most USN battleships (along with "Type P Mk IV" installed atop battleship turrets) and cruisers, started testing in 1929, while the Type A Mk IV was first installed in 1931 onboard USS RICHMOND. The writeup is in Annex B, pg 177.


Thx Rick - I hadn't seen this appendix yet but very useful info!

Here are the pages, reproduced here under a "fair use" context:

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Post Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
The 5" 38 was a semi fixed shell and casing combo. The shell and casings were separate items, so my understanding was that a standard 5" 38 casing, without the shell could be used (not really a blank). When firing the 5" mounts, a noticeable burnt cork smell was noticeable as a large cork was used to plug the mouth of the cartridge. What I don't know was as the cartridge was used to generate gas pressure to activate the catapult, there would have had to have been some system to evacuate a potential cork debris buildup. A diagram showing the workings of this system would be informative.

A simple and effective system. By contrast Bismarck used a compressed air system. Some minor damage caused by one of POW's hits caused their system to become inoperable when an attempt was made to fly the Kriegstagbuch (war diary) to safety. Perhaps a subject of some disappointment to the pilot.
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
what are "sheet casings"?


Shell

The type P catapult was designed by the Bureau of Ordinance. A 5-inch blank cartridge was fired into an expansion chamber that drove a piston.

The advantage of the type P was that it was entirely self-contained. It could be mounted on top of a turret without having drill holes through the turret for power or hydraulics.
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:38 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Thank you R.E.D.!

I do have that book though it's not one I reference very often. I'll check that out!

Regards: Tom
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 4:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Since there seems to be a lot of question and interest in USN Catapults lately, there is a good summary by Dr Friedman in his Aircraft Carrier Design History book. Surprisingly, he covers catapults for not only Aircraft Carriers (there was some overlap), but gives a summary of the catapults installed aboard the battleships and cruisers. Not a lot of technical data on the battleship-cruiser catapults, but there is a listing of the "Type A" - Compressed Air and "Type P" Gun Powder catapults and at least general idea of which units had specific catapults installed and when. It is kind of interesting that the "Type P Mk VI", the type used on most USN battleships (along with "Type P Mk IV" installed atop battleship turrets) and cruisers, started testing in 1929, while the Type A Mk IV was first installed in 1931 onboard USS RICHMOND. The writeup is in Annex B, pg 177.
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:05 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
It's what you wrap the miscreant in (As Whole) in before piping him overboard while underway.
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
what are "sheet casings"?
Post Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
That seems a reasonable explanation. The requirements for meeting both criteria would seem to be overly complex, the dolly mode would only require sufficient strength to take the static load of the aircraft. The acceleration and abrupt stop modes require a great degree of robustness. Earlier Battleship catapults used a black powder charge which gave a pretty "active" push impulse. Not certain what the propulsive force came from for the fairly standard Cruiser/ Battleship catapult fitted to war construction. Some information suggests 5" shell casings were used as propulsion.

T
Post Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 10:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
chuck wrote:
Fliger747 wrote:
I am not sure if the handling dollies can be used as a launch cradle as well.


I cannot state on this with certainty but from what I have seen of the plans, the answer is "no."

I see in my highly incomplete plan collection is that there is something called a "dummy car" that is distinct from a "launching car."

The launching car slides along [presumably] greased rails. It wraps around the rail so it cannot pull up.

The "dummy car" has dolly wheels but lacks the stopping buffer of the launching car. The wheels dangle over the side when on the catapult. The launching car lacks wheels.
Post Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
Chuck:

Perhaps it was you, or someone else that posted a photo of such boat on this thread, I think the Motor mech's were doing some engine work on it. However looking at the profile of the dolly, it might well be for the observation planes. Such a dolly was used when the ship might be carrying a spare or two. Alaska carried four planes and the dolly's were used to wheel them into the hangars. The cradle on the catapult was not removable as it was connected to the piston and a different piece of equipment.

I love to look at large glossies such as the Navy would produce in the ships photo lab because of the great detail that can be seen under magnification. I used to do a lot of air photo interpretation and there is a lot to be seen in a good image!

Regards: Tom


Hi, Tom. The 33 foot boat sat on a dolly different from aircraft dollies. It is much larger, and had boat chocks on it.

The best I can tell, the cradle on the catapult is removable. There are photos where the catapults are bare, the cradle is not there on the catapult.

The Missouri had at least 2 aircraft handling dollies with caster wheels for rolling around on deck. There is a photo showing the Missouri with 1 King Fisher on cradle on each catapult, a third kingfisher on a handling dolly on deck, and another handling dolly sitting empty next to 1st dolly.

The deck handling dolly can also fit on the track on the catapult. When secured this way the caster wheels hang off the side of the catapults. There are several photos of Iowa class ships showing 2 king fishers or sea hawks were double parked on the same catapult. The aircraft in the front is secured to a handling dolly, which is secured to the catapult. The aircraft in the back is secured to a launch cradle. The photos appear to show the dolly can actually be secured to several different points along the length of the catapult, because the front aircraft is actually seen in different locations on the catapult.

There are photos actually showing 3 aircraft triple parked on the catapult on top of USS Texas’s midship turret.

I am not sure if the handling dollies can be used as a launch cradle as well.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Double post deleted
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
I point out that the upper photograph shows an extra 20mm mount has been wedged in at the 02 level. Instead of the designed 2 mounts, there are three.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Rick, that makes sense.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Timmy,

The footage you reference as the fleet entires Tokyo Bay on 28 August 1945, has poor quality color. The film has pieces from different camera crews spliced together. Some footage further in the film is in better shape.

Note that some of the same "deck coloring" is also visible on the destroyer alongside USS MISSOURI. Destroyers didn't have wood decks. Maybe the task force got rained on entering the bay. I noticed in the photos I posted taken on 2 September 1945, that there were "wet areas" from either a rain squall or an attempt to clean the deck off.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Commodore Mathew Perry not his brother Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry.
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
The 31 star flag is the very same flag flown by Commodore Perry when he led the US Navy Far East Squadron into Tokyo Bay in 1853-54.


David
Post Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Any chance it could've been a mix of both? This Youtube video (starting at 11s) shows some rather uneven colouration on the main deck during the arrival into Tokyo Bay. Wouldn't be surprised, though, if they fully repainted it in 20B by the time of the ceremony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkhVdYg3UZA



Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
I'm pretty sure that USS MISSOURI retained blue decks for the surrender. Remember that there was still a degree of fear of a "Kamikaze" attack by elements of the Japanese military as the USN entered Tokyo Bay and there was a LOT of activity in getting teams ready to go ashore. Marines were being consolidated for going ashore to secure ports. Removing paint from the decks for the surrender was very low on the "To Do" list. The MISSOURI didn't even touchup the hull for this event. The "best" (with the color not too deteriorated with time) color images of the surrender ceremony I have seen were taken by the US Army Signal Corp photographers.

Attached are several images of USS MISSOURI that I have scanned during those final months of the war. The first two show her on 2 September 1945, one an aerial view showing her decks and the other photo shows her well worn hull paint with just a few places touched up. Plus both images show that the day was pretty overcast early. The sun did make an appearance during the actual signing.

The third image is for the discussion a few posts back about "boats" carried by USS MISSOURI. This image dates in March 1945. This image has a lot of interesting details going on. If the date is correct, it was prior to the Okinawa Invasion, and it would appear that one or two aircraft are aloft. Also, I seldom see this kind of detail of the aft deck and with the crane folded down while underway.

Image

Image

Image
Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Top photo, October 1945, vicinity of the Panama Canal, Missouri on her way home.

The natural wood decks appear distinctly different in this photo than the color of the decks in surrender ceremony photos taken a month earlier.

The 31-star flag is odd.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:19 pm

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