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Topic review - At 'Em Arizona Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
CalV wrote:
Exactly right Jeff. The only issue I had with "Seven Seconds", which is a great article, is that it showed the midships hit as a near miss. I believe this video by the NPS was in this area (frame 80 - 90) and there were survivor reports from Wentzlaff, Lane and Hurst stating there was a fire in the Exec's office (frames 82 - 86) just below the NPS divers position. All of their reports stated it was beofre the big blast. Also in Raymers "Descent into Darkness" recounts diver reports of removing a bomb from the meat locker 2 decks below the execs office. Eye witness reports can be wrong but lots of evidence of a hit in this area.


Thank you for reminding about "Descent into Darkness"! Here is the excerpt from the book.

Image
Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:33 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Jeff Sharp wrote:
Then in 1997 he wrote the article "Seven Seconds to Infamy".
Here is a quote from that article.
"Although original damage reports on the Arizona listed as many as eight bomb hits, Japanese aviators estimated as many as four. The lower Japanese account is far more realistic. And now, with the addition of new data, the official Japanese testimony of four hits can be lowered to only two hits and two very near misses."
John eliminated the two bomb hits midship's.
If there was only two bomb runs and only two bomb hits as John states then what is this?

This is another good question.
Why Japanese account? Yes, Material Damage Assesment with 8 hits may contain errors
But there is shipyard war damage report contains data from a survey of divers.
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/1943-10-7WarDamageReport.html

Unfortunately, there are no text description of hit and enclosures. But there are some details from this report in other documents.

USS Arizona Analysis of loss, 1944
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... fLoss.html
Quote:
4. Reference (a) found evidence of only five bomb hits, all of which were aft of the foremast structure.


and USS Arizona Magazine Explosion, 1947
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... osion.html
Quote:
15. The evidence is not clear as to whether the bomb penetrated the third deck or a fire started by the bomb detonation passed through an open hatch in the third deck into the magazines. Reference (a) stated that most of the armored hatches on the third deck were probably open at the time. Reference (c) indicated that fragments from 4 of 5 bombs of which definite evidence was found of having hit ARIZONA penetrated the third deck. The fifth bomb hit the faceplate of turret IV which may account for its detonation above the second deck.


As for me only 800kg AP bomb may penetrate second and third deck (4-1/4-inch STS). And that means that six 800kg bombs hits ARIZONA
Post Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Exactly right Jeff. The only issue I had with "Seven Seconds", which is a great article, is that it showed the midships hit as a near miss. I believe this video by the NPS was in this area (frame 80 - 90) and there were survivor reports from Wentzlaff, Lane and Hurst stating there was a fire in the Exec's office (frames 82 - 86) just below the NPS divers position. All of their reports stated it was beofre the big blast. Also in Raymers "Descent into Darkness" recounts diver reports of removing a bomb from the meat locker 2 decks below the execs office. Eye witness reports can be wrong but lots of evidence of a hit in this area.
Post Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I have questioned John's conclusions in this article as well. Certain things just don’t add up. To give a little background, before this article was published in 1997, John was a contributor to Paul Stillwell's book "Battleship Arizona" which was published in 1991. John contributed a few drawings to the book including this one.
Image
At the time he concluded that Arizona was hit by four 800kg bombs as seen in this drawing.
Then in 1997 he wrote the article "Seven Seconds to Infamy".
Here is a quote from that article.
"Although original damage reports on the Arizona listed as many as eight bomb hits, Japanese aviators estimated as many as four. The lower Japanese account is far more realistic. And now, with the addition of new data, the official Japanese testimony of four hits can be lowered to only two hits and two very near misses."
John eliminated the two bomb hits midship's.
If there was only two bomb runs and only two bomb hits as John states then what is this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnSDNNgJG80
Post Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Jeff Sharp wrote:
A few years back the USNI published an article by John F. De Virgilio titled "Seven Seconds to Infamy". This article described the two high level bombing attacks on the USS Arizona. He describes the five plane V formation of each bomb run and supplies a drawing of the location of all ten bombs that were dropped on Arizona and Vestal.


May be I am wrong. But as fo me some inaccuracies in this schema.

WDR#12 Vestal + Plan Book Arizona + 2 hit on Arizona
Image

Real position of ships (pink) and hits from WDR (red) on De Virgilio Bomb Overlay
Image

Test. Putting it all on the photo + De Virgilio Bomb Overlay(blue)
Image
Post Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:22 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
the vegetable locker was laid out in what way?
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-1_a.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-2_a.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-3_a.jpg
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/BB39/BOGP/
Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Getting back to my Banner Arizona and I am wondering was there ever a consensus as to how the area of the vegetable locker was laid out through the ships time in service? I read through the thread but never came around with a definite answer. I remember someone posting some computer drawn images but can't recall where I saw them. Anyone???
Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi,
It was announced by Mr. Sulc, EDUARD CEO at Czech Modelform where Eduard has its own thread and Mr. Sulc makes there some announcements, answers endless questions and discuss with modelers.
Info again from Modelforum: different details added to Arizona kit will be latter sold separately as Brassin sets.
Seems Eduard is going to focus on Pacific theatre to some extent. They going to start with Tora, Tora, Tora - e.g. USS Arizona 1/350 and Zeros over PH, then other versions of Zero, Wildcat. IJN HIryu (reboxed Fujimi 1/350) is negotiated so far. If project Hiryu not happened then Yorktown should be replacement.
Sorry for off-topic.
Regards,
66misos
Post Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
66misos wrote:
Hi,
EDUARD is going to release the USS Arizona 1/350 kit. It is old Trumpeter kit with add-ons - there will be a lot of prints, reels, machine guns, cannons, Kingfischers, metal main gun barrel, printed flags and PE parts. It should be something like "Tora, Tora, Tora" action to PH anniversary. However, the December date is questionable because the moldings are in a traffic jam in a Chinese port...
Regards,
66misos


May I ask where this info came from? I don't see it on their site or facebook pages...
Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:36 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
maccrage wrote:
66misos wrote:
Hi,
EDUARD is going to release the USS Arizona 1/350 kit. It is old Trumpeter kit with add-ons - there will be a lot of prints, reels, machine guns, cannons, Kingfischers, metal main gun barrel, printed flags and PE parts. It should be something like "Tora, Tora, Tora" action to PH anniversary. However, the December date is questionable because the moldings are in a traffic jam in a Chinese port...
Regards,
66misos

Bulkheads to cover the horrid kit superstructure?


They had/have two different big ed sets for different Arizona's in 1/350th... The Minihobby and the Hobby Boss kits, both had the bulkheads to cover the seams on the superstructure... They are all the same Banner Kit....

And both sets are discontinued....
Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
66misos wrote:
Hi,
EDUARD is going to release the USS Arizona 1/350 kit. It is old Trumpeter kit with add-ons - there will be a lot of prints, reels, machine guns, cannons, Kingfischers, metal main gun barrel, printed flags and PE parts. It should be something like "Tora, Tora, Tora" action to PH anniversary. However, the December date is questionable because the moldings are in a traffic jam in a Chinese port...
Regards,
66misos

Bulkheads to cover the horrid kit superstructure?
Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi,
EDUARD is going to release the USS Arizona 1/350 kit. It is old Trumpeter kit with add-ons - there will be a lot of prints, reels, machine guns, cannons, Kingfischers, metal main gun barrel, printed flags and PE parts. It should be something like "Tora, Tora, Tora" action to PH anniversary. However, the December date is questionable because the moldings are in a traffic jam in a Chinese port...
Regards,
66misos
Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Egilman wrote:
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Color discussion whacked. Don't post that sh*t here!


Sincere apologies Martin, I should have known better and checked where it was posted.....

Jeff, could you post that vid over in the Colors & Camo section? it is relevant there as well....

I moved it there earlier.
Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
MartinJQuinn wrote:
Color discussion whacked. Don't post that sh*t here!


Sincere apologies Martin, I should have known better and checked where it was posted.....

Jeff, could you post that vid over in the Colors & Camo section? it is relevant there as well....
Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:39 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
'48 would be the earliest, that's when Admiral Radford ordered the flagpole erected on the wreck and declared it's a war grave/memorial....

<SNIP>

Thanks for posting it...
Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:20 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Right at the 10:00 mark. Notice also Nihoa sailing behind her. I believe this footage to be late 40’s early 50’s.
Post Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Jeff Sharp wrote:
USS Arizona makes an appearance in this home movie footage.


What's the time code Jeff, I missed it..... (looked at it twice)
Post Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
USS Arizona makes an appearance in this home movie footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ENLUD8q59o
Post Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Nice. Can you post to the NV/OK thread as well?
Post Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Another Arizona sighting. This one is a crop of a much larger photo dated 10/3/41. She is moored at F-7 with USS Nevada behind her at F-8.
Image
Post Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:19 pm

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