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Topic review - Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans
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  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
That was the information I tried, and failed, to find yesterday! Dates and particulars on the King Board conference!
So it turns out the directions were in place earlier than I'd thought, but it still remains: Since Iowa was laid down in mid-1940, and the King Board improvement plan came out in December 1940,Iowa and New Jersey must have gone into construction with 1.1" mounts still on the plans. But I even more strongly suspect now that when the plans were subsequently modified they probably skipped over the phase of adding tubs to the 1.1" quads, and simply deleted them entirely and went straight to 40s with tubs.
Yes, it's wild how quickly these things changed.
- Sean F.
Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:33 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
wojtekp90 wrote:
I have a question, what bibliography and books Iowa and Missouri do you recommend to build these ships?


What kinds of things are you interested in?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:20 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
The question about WHAT AA-weapons were planned for the USS IOWA class (and other USN ships) was driven by the outbreak of war in Europe and the experience feedback from the UK to the USA. In the Spring of 1940, Adm. King initiated a board to study ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENSE IMPROVEMENTS TO THE FLEET. It was realized that the current "medium-AA weapon", the quad 1.1-in gun mount was inadequate. Several alternatives were studied, until the Swedish Bofors was considered to be a better option that "could" be produced in relatively short order. A sample "twin 40-mm" Bofors mount arrived in the USA in August 1940. Comparative testing took place and BuOrd was impressed with the guns performance, but soon realized that this weapon as it was produced in Sweden, had problems for mass production. Most of the components were "tailor" fitted for each gun. The USN preceded to redesign the guns for US production lines with interchangeable parts. This all took time and mounts produced in the USA and settling license agreements with Sweden, means that mounts weren't ready until early 1942. Even then they couldn't be installed until new fire control systems were also, developed and put into production. The first "production" twin 40-mm mounts were delivered in May 1942. The first shipboard mounts on "fighting" ships and not training ships, took place in about July 1942.

The King Board AA-Defense Improvement Plan came out in December 1940. The 40-mm guns were to be the ULTIMATE medium AA weapon, but quad 1.1-in mount was considered to be the best "INTERIM" option. Even then, production of the quad 1.1-in mounts lagged demand and single 3-in/50 guns were installed as a stop-gap weapon.

What this means is that depending on when given drawings of the new IOWA class were drawn, AND when the ships in that class were scheduled to be completed, the weapons in those plans that were to be installed could change. The first two IOWA's design in 1938 included quad 1.1-in and 50-cal MGs. However, they were laid down in 1940. This would mean that the "Build Plans" would have been altered with the previously planned quad 1.1-in mounts being replaced by 40-mm mounts and the 50-cal MGs replaced by 20-mm guns.

This is a VERY short summary of USN AA-weapons development from 1939 to 1942. Lots of reference material goes into the ugly details. :cool_2:
Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
I have a question, what bibliography and books Iowa and Missouri do you recommend to build these ships?
Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
I could not find a picture of this detail so I made one. This is the transition from double bottom to triple bottom. The triangular sheet is the rider plate on the keel.
Attachment:
P1050748.jpg
P1050748.jpg [ 230.66 KiB | Viewed 71 times ]
Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
No, none of the tubs on the as-completed Iowa were meant for 1.1" quads. Sorry if my musings caused any confusion on that point.

As for drawings with them, it's quite possible that 1.1" tubs may never have been drawn... if I recall correctly the tubs, along with other AA shielding, only started to be added to USN ships in mid or late 1941, after the Iowa's construction had begun - hence their absence from the early model. Maybe the Navy got around to drawing in the 1.1" gun tubs as a modification to the initial drawings; or maybe they skipped over it and went straight to the exciting new Bofors that they could reasonably assume would be available before Iowa completed. That is to say, ships in-service or nearing completion would need the tubs and shields right away and couldn't wait for the 40s to arrive, while the Iowas and Essexes wouldn't be ready until later anyway.

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:43 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
When the ships were designed were any of the tubs originally intended for 1.1"?


The Iowa class were conceived with 1.1". Construction started before the 40mm was adopted. The switch from 1.1" to 40mm took place rapidly and the number of guns was greatly increased. By the time they got to building the tubs, the switch had been made. The tubs were all designed for 40mm guns. The openings in the centers of the tub floors are all measured for 40mm guns.

It is possible that designs existed for 1.1" guns in tubs but I have yet to see one. There are drafted plans to mount 3" twins in the tubs.

The 40mm plans start in the fall of 1942, around the time the Iowa was launched.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
That same image is in Garzke & Dulin. Definitely showed the stretched SODAK look.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
SeanF wrote:
Fliger747 wrote:
When the ships were designed were any of the tubs originally intended for 1.1"?


In a broad sense, yes... Though no tubs are there, it looks like the standard prewar battleship allocation of four 1.1" quads is in evidence on the early design model. As are range clocks!
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016175.jpg

(Sometimes I think it might be fun to build a "completed as contracted" version of an Iowa, South Dakota, or Essex class vessel - just to see people's reaction to that something that's not quite right...)

- Sean F.



The model pictured In the link above represented a stage in the design evolution before the drawings were prepared by New York navy yard. Here the hull side above top of the armored belt was not plated in, and the ship still carried a range of boats midship. There was a later much more detailed builder’s model reflecting the construction drawing that showed the ship in essentially the same configuration as seen on the Iowa at the time of commissioning. It was dated 1941. That model showed all the 40mm tubs on the superstructure, and 2 40mm tubs at the fantail.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
That would be fun!
Post Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
When the ships were designed were any of the tubs originally intended for 1.1"?


In a broad sense, yes... Though no tubs are there, it looks like the standard prewar battleship allocation of four 1.1" quads is in evidence on the early design model. As are range clocks!
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016175.jpg

(Sometimes I think it might be fun to build a "completed as contracted" version of an Iowa, South Dakota, or Essex class vessel - just to see people's reaction to that something that's not quite right...)

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
When the ships were designed were any of the tubs originally intended for 1.1"?
Post Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Based on what I've seen, the floor of all 40mm Bofor tubs that were originally planned for the ships, and show on the Bureau of ships drawing room model, was steel decking, maybe with tread pattern plates. These remained steel throughout the war. These include all the 40mm tubs on the superstructure, and the 2 on the fantail. But main deck level 40mm tubs that were added after Iowa's shake down cruise, which include the 2 forward of A turret and the 2 abreast of the C turret, had plank floors. On the other 3 ships of the class, eventhough these tubs were included right from the start, their floors were still planked. The 40mm bofor tub added on top of main turret had steel floors.
Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Finishing detail on '43 Iowa  Reply with quote
stevegallacci wrote:
After a long pause, I'm getting back into working on my Trumpeter conversion of the Iowa in spirng of '43 configuration. Have pretty good images and such for most of the details, including the new "Anatomy of the Ship" book. A little finishing question (may have brought this up here some years ago before I dropped out). It appears that there was unpainted (?) linolium (?) on the unplanked decks during the '43 shake down. Only have a few photos that suggest it, most clearly in the 40mm tubs and maybe elsewhere. Any insight?


I stumbled upon a plan today showing "Asbestos Mats" on some of the superstructure decking.

I've tried to upload the relevant parts but the web site will note allow me to do so.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
chuck wrote:
FWIW; I discovered a couple of other minor errors in FDD’s missouri plan:

2. between the 2nd and 3rd 5” mount, on deck 002, FDD shows there are 2 oerlikon mounts on a platform. But photos in both late 1944 and late 1945 clearly show 3 mounts there.

http://navalwarfare.blogspot.com/2013/08/uss-renshaw-dd-499-dde-499.html


Every picture of the Missouri in service I could find did show three mounts there. The plans for the New Jersey show every 20mm has a 5' working radius and only two mounts in that location. The platform looks the same size as on the Missouri. There is not enough room for 3 guns and a 5' working radius to they probably they just had the guns and wedged them in there. Unless the mount had a gyro sight, all it took to install a 20mm mount was to bolt it down. The 1947 BGP for the Missouri shows two guns in that location and has a note that the center gun was removed. The outer gun mounts are shown farther apart than on the NJ.
Post Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:41 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
FWIW; I discovered a couple of other minor errors in FDD’s missouri plan:

1. When missouri was completed, the two 40 mm bofor mounts on judge abaft the B turret each carried a separate tub with a mk51 Director. The Gibbs and Cox model and the FDD plan both show this tub. However, for mid-late 1945 when she wore measure 22, including the surrender ceremony, this appears to be incorrect. The oft reprinted photo of the Missouri during underway refueling, and a very clear overhead photo of the Missouri taken during the VJ Day parade on the Hudson, clearly shows the mk51 tubs and their support have been removed from next to these two bofor mounts.

2. between the 2nd and 3rd 5” mount, on deck 002, FDD shows there are 2 oerlikon mounts on a platform. But photos in both late 1944 and late 1945 clearly show 3 mounts there.

http://navalwarfare.blogspot.com/2013/08/uss-renshaw-dd-499-dde-499.html
Post Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Fliger747 wrote:
BJS: What was the purpose of the mats?


As a cost saving measure areas of teak in need of repair aft were not repaired. Instead, the shipyard poured a glue (expoxy?) over the wood and laid a rubber mat on top. This created the dark areas of different shapes on the Iowas one sees in the 80's that one might think from photographs are places where the wood was removed.

This was all taken up on the NJ because it was such a mess.

Here the rubber is in place.
http://navsource.org/archives/01/062/016219.jpg

Here is the ship after decommissioning and where the rubber (and some of the wood) has been pulled up.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/0162057.jpg
Post Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
I believe in the original design, the area between funnels were intended for stowing the typical prewar complement of boats. These would have been serviced by cranes located on either side of the aft funnel. The base for the crane and the boat chocks were actually installed before the decision was made to build the mid ship triplex bofor tower over them. According to Friedman, when the midship bofor towers were removed from the Iowa and New Jersey during the 1980 modernization, the workmen discovered the original boat chocks and crane base still there under the tower.

When the Iowa was ran her trials in March 1943, she had a different arrangement of bofors and oerlikon than what would become standard on the lowa class. She had no oerlikon tub on top of the bullnose. instead of a pair of bofor tubs in front of A turret, she had a triangular oerlikon tub there for three oerlikom mounts. The base of the triangular oerlikon tub were uncovered when as part of museum sponsored restoration, the deck planking were replaced. The main turrets didn’t have any AA guns on them, and the pair of bofor tubes flanking aft end of the superstructure were not there either. In their place were 2 oerlikon mounts. These original features were all gone by nov 1943, when she ferried FDR to the Tehran conference.
Post Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:32 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
Is there a difference between the original design and the original construction? How much change was there between shakedown and trials and initial service?

BJS: What was the purpose of the mats?
Post Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Iowa BB-61 class fans  Reply with quote
The only non-wood exterior deck covering I am aware of is the black rubber mats placed on top of adhesive over the wooden decks in the vicinity of Turret No. 3.

I have seen no signs of British style covering over the exposed steel.
Post Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:31 pm

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