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Topic review - Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
Not somewhere you would immediately think to look for photos of German ships, but there is a veritable treasure trove of photos of the Yavuz (ex Goeben) available online on the U.K. Imperial War Museum Website:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=yavuz&pageSize=90&filters%5BwebCategory%5D%5BPhotographs%5D=on&page=0

The majority seem to have been taken in August 1966 by which time Yavuz was out of commission and berthed at Gölcük. There are plenty of 'walkaround' exterior photos and even some interior ones. Lots of angles and details that should be very useful to modellers.
Post Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:22 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
The Warship Pictorial refers to the first turret as "Anton"
Cheers
Jim
Post Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Tin Can Gunner wrote:
Gents:
I'm currently working on a 1:700 Seydlitz.
I've got a question on the air recognition markings.
Pages 22 and 23 of Warship Pictorial 47 make reference to the markings being on both the "Anton" and "Caesar" turrets.
On the https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/germany/seydlitz illustration shows the air recognition markings on "Anton" and "Dora". I'm inclined to go with the Warships Illustrated photos, although the "Caesar" marking isn't that evident.
Do any of you know of a definitive work that illustrates the air recognition markings of the High Seas Fleet at Jutland?


Both are correct. It deppends how you name the turrets. If we go for the British convention of name the bow turrets A-B-C..., the middle turrets P-Q-R... and the aft ones X-Y, the Seydlitz Turrets would be A-P-Q-X-Y with the circles in A and X.
Probably you are counting A-B-C.... to name the turrets so then they would be A(A)-B(P)-C(Q)-D(X)-E(Y) then for you the marking is in D turret.
Then probably Warship Pictorial 47 is using the German convention of naming the turrets in a clockwise or anticlockwise (I dont remember) manner then the turrets are A(A)-B(P or Q)-C(X)-D(Y)-E(Q or P) then the circle is in the C turret (always the superfiring aft one or X).

In Seydlitz the turrets were named Anna, Berta, Cäsar, Dora, Emil
Post Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Gents:
I'm currently working on a 1:700 Seydlitz.
I've got a question on the air recognition markings.
Pages 22 and 23 of Warship Pictorial 47 make reference to the markings being on both the "Anton" and "Caesar" turrets.
On the https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/germany/seydlitz illustration shows the air recognition markings on "Anton" and "Dora". I'm inclined to go with the Warships Illustrated photos, although the "Caesar" marking isn't that evident.
Do any of you know of a definitive work that illustrates the air recognition markings of the High Seas Fleet at Jutland?
Cheers
Jim
Post Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
The cutouts were also added later in the Derflinger. I found it out by viewing pics closely when I build the Flyhawk Derflinger in her 1915 fit out. In my case I had to close the cutouts and straighten the deck.

Greetings Christian
Post Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:00 am
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
mike powell wrote:
First is taken from an aerial view of Seydlitz on Page 22, identified by Steve as "about 1916, prior to the Battle of Jutland"


That picture is clearly post of Jutland because the presence of the life rafts in the turret sides, lack of torpedo nets and most of all the presence of the concrete patch in the starboard side turret (turret B) just next to the right gun, following a penetration on that battle.

I have the Warship Pictorial 47 and I'm really happy to learn that it will be one of the German Battleships too.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Great observation! I've merged this thread into the Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans thread, so we don't lose the information.
Post Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:26 am
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Both following photos are crops from Steve Wiper's Warship Pictorial German Battlecruisers 1910 - 1919, a booklet I highly recommend.

First is taken from an aerial view of Seydlitz on Page 22, identified by Steve as "about 1916, prior to the Battle of Jutland" and he mentions the view was taken on a post repair trial in the Baltic following damage at Dogger Bank. Note she is not carrying her anti-torpedo nets. I've marked up view in yellow to show the rebatement of the deck as discussed above.

Image

And the same crop without my editing

Image

Finally, here from a familiar photo presented on Page 46 in large format and excellent clarity, is Seydlitz on a date certain, that is at least post June 3, 1916, in Wilhelmshaven after her return from Jutland. Again I've highlighted the deck edge alteration, in this case to the area above the second 5.9 inch casemate from the bow. The other casemates are not clear to my eye but I believe the alteration to the deck was consistent for all casemates, as shown in the first crop.

Image

Any comments are appreciated.

The next step is to resolve the method of securing to the deck the lifelines which were struck down when cleared for action.
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Mike Powell,

Go right ahead, and thanks for asking !

At this time, not much of a chance on the Italian light cruisers, as I do not have a good collection of images on that topic.

Next up is German Battleships 1909-1919.

Thank you again for asking and the great comments about my publications. You hit the nail on the head when you stated best value for money spent, which was exactly my goal.

Steve Wiper
www.classicwarships.com
Post Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Steve Wiper

Your book, Warship Pictorial 47 German Battlecruisers 1910 - 1919 has been seminal to my thinking on this. The two views of Seydlitz taken from above jolted me to the opinion the deck certainly was rebated above the central casemates's gun barrels. But pre or post Jutland remained an issue. That I believe is definitively answered by your extraordinarily clear presentation of the photos of her at Wilhelmshaven following the battle. Once you know what you are looking for, these features are very evident.

With your permission I would like to post a few crops of the images in question which I would mark with highlights to show just what we're talking about.

I have several of your pictorials. They are all excellent and I consider them great value for the cost. Is there any possibility of a companion to WP 23 Italian Heavy cruisers of WWII that would illustrate the lighter units? Raimondo Montecuccoli was one of the loveliest warships ever and I'd enjoy seeing you cover her and her sister units as well.

Please let me know about posting the photos I mentioned.

Best regards,

Mike Powell
Post Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Mike Powell,

If you are able to obtain my book......

"WP47 - German Battlecruisers 1909-1919"

.........there are multiple images with a glimpse of the modifications you are asking about in it.

Please see the review on this website, linked on the main page left, below the menu.

Also, please see my website......

Steve Wiper
http://www.classicwarships.com

Ooooooppppsssss ! Just saw you mention my book. Get out the magnifying glass and look closely at the images. I see the modifications in some of them.
Post Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
SMS Seydlitz definitely had the modification Mike Powell so astutely observed, and it was likely done in 1917 or 1918.

Alas, the web is not rich in photographs of Seyd's midships 5.9-in guns. There are some very good views of them as they were prewar:

https://www.sms-navy.com/bc/SMS_Seydlit ... tbdmid.jpg

https://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/germany/seydlitz (first photo)

After modification (ca. 1918: note that the midships battery casemates have had the deck cut away above them---the plating above the casemates is no longer flush with the hull, but has been cut back to allow higher elevation of the 5.9-in. guns):

https://www.welt.de/geschichte/geschich ... eedaca.png

One is much better off looking at a book about Seyd to see this very clearly. The web is not your friend in this matter.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:22 am
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Hi Mike;

Having suffered through a lot of research to scratch build a card model of Syedlitz, here are some comments to ponder. The general view drawings on pages 146 and seven are derived from the booklet of general plans from the constructor and are quite accurate up to the launch. The color illustrations, while very beautiful, detract from the excellence of the text in general. You can clearly see that the midship frames from the waterline to the weather deck arte pretty much a straight line. It allows for a flat armor belt. The apertures for the casemate guns are rectangular cuts. The area is a more or less flat surface. The guns were attached to the deck and the semi-circular shields were attached to rotate with the guns. Concentration of fire for casemate guns was arranged six guns forward and four aft. The photographs on pages 150 and 151 confirm this. The tops of the gun shields for the two forward and aft mounts are partially visible from above. The outside of the shields for all the others are flush with the sides of the hull and not visible from above.

Note, there is no photographic evidence that the forward four, eighty eight millimeter guns were ever actually fitted to the ship. This was likely because they were a conduit to flooding in a heavy sea. These were flat trajectory naval weapons and not directly related to the famous anti aircraft weapons. Post Jutland, while the torpedo netting was intentionally deleted and make view of the hull much clearer. There is no direct evidence that the original arrangement of the casemates was altered up to the time of the great scuttle.

The development of the card model can be viewed on "papermodelers.com" under "design threads" or by chasing it through "rjccjr." It may clarify this discussion. Hope it helps.

Regards, rjccjr
Post Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:06 am
  Post subject:  Well done, Mike Powell  Reply with quote
Thank you, Mike Powell. I fancied there was nothing about the outside appearance of SMS Seydlitz that could surprise me after 50 years of looking at photos and plans of her. You are dead right! Great work!
Post Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
Neglected to mention the overhead photo identified as 1916 is found in Warship Pictorial 47 "German Battlecruisers 1910 - 1919". This monograph and Gary Staff's book are both excellent.

Mike Powell
Post Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:57 pm
  Post subject:  SMS Seydlitz  Reply with quote
One aspect of modelling SMS Seydlitz as fitted during Jutland is the plan view of the upper deck above the central 15 cm casemates. It is clear in all photos and plans I know that the deck does not extend forward above the foremost casemates nor aft above the aft most casemates. However, in pre and early war photos the four central casemates appear fully overlapped by the upper deck. They certainly are shown that way in both the main drawing and the full color plan (shown "1915") of Seydlitz in Gary Staff's "German Battlecruisers Of World War One" and this is how Combrig treats them in both their 1/700 and 1/350 kits.

Hobby Boss in their 1/350 offering treats this feature differently. The deck above the central casemates is rebated exposing the 15 cm barrels as they protrude. Numbering the casemates 1 - 6 from forward to aft, the deck above casemate 2, 3 and 4 is rebated forward. The deck above casemate 5 is rebated aft. In each case this is consistent with the fore or aft orientation of the casemate. This seems consistent with the 1916 fit as seen in various photos of Seydlitz as damaged at Jutland and is confirmed in a splendid overhead photo of her identified as "…about 1916, prior to the Battle of Jutland".

This feature bedeviled me for many years but I now believe it is simply the result of war time modification. I understand she was repaired in 1916 following Dogger Bank. I've also read references to "the 1916 refit" and that her 8.8 cm casemated guns were eventually removed. Further, sources mention that the 15 cm battery at 20 degrees elevation range of 13,500 m was later increased to 16,800 m. It seems logical the deck rebating allowed elevation increase to achieve the greater range.

This is all suppositional on my part as I can find no reference to such deck alteration. I'd appreciate any comments on this, details of "the 1916 refit" or on any other aspect of Seydlitz's appearance at Jutland.

Thank you,

Mike Powell
Post Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
So, what's up with the rear anchor on these ships? I'm working on Derfflinger and there is an anchor on the stern, but it doesn't appear to be attached to a chain. The model kit does not come with one. The drawings I have don't show one. The photos of the stern aren't many, but I can't seem to make one out on them either.

How did that work?
Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
Greetings!

I am working on the JSC 1/250 Goeben, rescaled down to 1/350. I am having some difficulties with the casemates for the secondary armament since the directions are unclear. Does anyone have experience with this kit?

Also, I should note that every one of the WWI German Grosse Kreuzers are available in paper card ships kits. JSC does the Goeben, Seydlitz, and Derrflinger in 1/250. HMV does Von der Tann and Derrflinger in 1/200, and GPM does Derrflinger, Lutzow, Hindenburg, Seydlitz, Goeben, and Moltke in 1/200. Of course, these models can be reprinted into any scale the builder likes. I have seen some wonderful models made from these kits that can exceed the detail on plastic or resin kits.


Thanks!

Bill
Post Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
This forum only supports .jpg and .png files. If the document is already online, just post the URL.
Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Imperial German Navy Große Kreuzer fans  Reply with quote
mikasa wrote:
I asked about this on a different thread in the camo forum and the response was that most of the capital ships in the High Seas Fleet had them. I'd like to have more info about the battleships on that, but I have an immediate question about the Lutzow, just because I have the model. I notice that the Flyhawk Derfflinger has these modeled, but the Lutzow does not. Is there some definitive info that Lutzow did not have these, or should I be figuring out how to bash them on?


For what it's worth I came across a document in 2017 on German navy paint schemes (WW1 and WW2). The descriptions in this are given with references (also in the file). Unfortunately, the forum does not allow it to be posted as either a docx (Word) or pdf file. I could try other formats at random, but perhaps someone knows what I should try to convert it to before posting?

Dave
Post Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:28 pm

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