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Topic review - Calling all RM Littorio class fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
JackSix wrote:
Thanks @Mr. Church & @Martin,

That's really interesting. Just to clarify, the Vittorio Veneto had the red stripes pattern on the bow & aft, when she was carrying the splinter camouflage scheme? Did I get that right? Woow, that is an interesting mix and if you confirm (@Mr. Church), I will definitely put it on my project list.




No Jack I don't think so but I can't say definitively not? As per previous message, the caption in the second photo is wrong in the book as it lists the photo as being taken from Vittorio Veneto. This can't be true as the ship visible in the background in the photo is undoubtedly Vittorio Veneto based on her camouflage pattern. So the ship the photo is taken from must be either Littorio or Roma?

Hence my original question about the Roma ever having the camouflage stripes aft or not?
Post Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks @Mr. Church & @Martin,

That's really interesting. Just to clarify, the Vittorio Veneto had the red stripes pattern on the bow & aft, when she was carrying the splinter camouflage scheme? Did I get that right? Woow, that is an interesting mix and if you confirm (@Mr. Church), I will definitely put it on my project list.

Wonder what @Giampiero would say. I think he could clearly provide a solid answer.

Chers,

Jack
Post Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Ok thanks Martin.

Here goes, moderators please delete in the event of copyright problems. I will re-post the entire earlier message for ease of viewing to save on scrolling up and down. All copyright for images rests with original authors. Low resolution images posted for discussion purposes only, no copyright infringement intended. In fact I would highly recommend purchase of both books for any Littorio Class fans.


A question I've been meaning to ask about the Littorio Class, hopefully some Italian Navy expert may know?

Did the Battleship Roma ever carry the red and white aerial recognition stripes on her planked deck aft?

Vittorio Veneto and Littorio certainly did at various points, photos of damaged Vittorio Veneto after being torpedoed at Cape Matapan in March 1941 clearly show it.

The reason I ask about Roma is that if you look at page 249 of this book:
https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Littorio-Class-Hardback/p/3107
There is a photo listed as taken from Vittorio Veneto with Roma up ahead and appearing to have stripes on her planked deck aft, dated November 12th-13th 1942. It may be an optical illusion caused by shadows of equipment on the deck or the guide rail for the aircraft catapult though? The angle of the photo is too oblique to tell for certain. Photo here:
Attachment:
Roma 1942 taken from Vittorio Veneto.JPG
Roma 1942 taken from Vittorio Veneto.JPG [ 381.86 KiB | Viewed 88 times ]


Also there is a photo on page 54 of this book:
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/books-plans/warship-pictorial/wp-37/wp-review.html
Listed as being taken from the aft deck of Vittorio Veneto looking over towards Roma in late 1942. The caption is incorrect however as the ship visible in full is Vittorio Veneto and not Roma. This due to Vittorio Veneto's 1942 splinter camouflage scheme being clearly evident. Unfortunately I don't know the class well enough to tell them apart from views of their aft decks alone. Though obviously the photo is taken from either Littorio or Roma? But it is interesting as it proves that the planked deck aft on at least one of the class was painted in aerial recognition stripes as late as 1942. Photo here:
Attachment:
Vittorio Veneto 1942 taken from other Littorio Class.JPG
Vittorio Veneto 1942 taken from other Littorio Class.JPG [ 350.72 KiB | Viewed 88 times ]


I would be curious to hear does anyone know for definite if Roma ever had the aerial recognition stripes painted on her planked deck aft and if so on what date or dates? Thanks.
Post Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Mr. Church wrote:
I didn't post the photos as I don't think I can for copyright reasons?

I think if you post them "for discussion purposes only" and post low rez images, you should be ok. Of course, now that I said that, Tracy White will swoop down and smack me for being wrong.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:30 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Thx Mr. Church,

Got it, didn't thought about copyrights. You are right. Could you send me the pics via PM, if that is no hassle for you? That should'nt be an infringement. I am interested to see what you are referring to. Was just thinking the other day to build the Vittorio Vento in 1:1250 scale.

Cheers,

Jack
Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks Jack, I'll give it some time and failing that drop him a PM perhaps?

I didn't post the photos as I don't think I can for copyright reasons? Unless the authors give me permission? No doubt it is a lot of work to write a book and I don't want to undermine the authors and lessen the chances of future interesting book titles. I just linked to the books so people can check themselves if they happen to have them? Both are great references on the Littorio Class and well worth getting I might add.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
@Mr. Church,

Unfortunately, I can't answer your question, but I am also interested. Could you post the 2 pictures your are referring to? Your links just show the bookcovers.

By the way @Giampiero (just a couple of posts before) is an expert (Italian naval historian). If he does not reply, maybe you reach out directly via PN. Let me know the outcome. Would be indeed interesting to build.

Cheers,

Jack
Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
A question I've been meaning to ask about the Littorio Class, hopefully some Italian Navy expert may know?

Did the Battleship Roma ever carry the red and white aerial recognition stripes on her planked deck aft?

Vittorio Veneto and Littorio certainly did at various points, photos of damaged Vittorio Veneto after being torpedoed at Cape Matapan in March 1941 clearly show it.

The reason I ask about Roma is that if you look at page 249 of this book:
https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Littorio-Class-Hardback/p/3107
There is a photo listed as taken from Vittorio Veneto with Roma up ahead and appearing to have stripes on her planked deck aft, dated November 12th-13th 1942. It may be an optical illusion caused by shadows of equipment on the deck or the guide rail for the aircraft catapult though? The angle of the photo is too oblique to tell for certain.

Also there is a photo on page 54 of this book:
http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/books-plans/warship-pictorial/wp-37/wp-review.html
Listed as being taken from the aft deck of Vittorio Veneto looking over towards Roma in late 1942. The caption is incorrect however as the ship visible in full is Vittorio Veneto and not Roma. This due to Vittorio Veneto's 1942 splinter camouflage scheme being clearly evident. Unfortunately I don't know the class well enough to tell them apart from views of their aft decks alone. Though obviously the photo is taken from either Littorio or Roma? But it is interesting as it proves that the planked deck aft on at least one of the class was painted in aerial recognition stripes as late as 1942.

I would be curious to hear does anyone know for definite if Roma ever had the aerial recognition stripes painted on her planked deck aft and if so on what date or dates? Thanks.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:48 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Trumpeter's website now listing a 1/350 Vittorio Veneto as released. Will probably be a bit of time yet before it appears in the west:
http://www.trumpeter-china.com/index.php?g=home&m=article&a=show&id=187&l=en

Curiously the box artwork shows the 1942 camouflage scheme yet the description lists it as Vittorio Veneto 1940. Not that there was much difference between the two really, bar AA weapon fit, radar and shipboard aircraft.

It will be interesting to see what actually appears. Hopefully somebody will produce an aftermarket set allowing all versions to be done. So many attractive colour schemes to choose from.
Post Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:28 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
@Giampiero,

It is finally done, the Roma in 1/1200. What a dragging project due to the camouflage pattern.

Here are the specs:

  • Kit: Revell Miniships 1/1200
  • Colors: Vallejo Model Colors, Life Color and Revell Email
  • PE in 1/700 & 1/1250: Eduard (anchors), Tom’s Modelworks (crane, catapult, railings, propellers), Rainbow (flagpoles)
  • No name chain (eBay) for the anchor (the smallest I could find)
  • Shapeways: aircrafts, dinghies, boats, 152mm
  • Decals: Peddinghaus, Xtradecals
  • Wire: Albion Alloys (masts, barrels)
  • Rigging: infini & UNI-Caenis, both 20 Denier

Thx Giampiero for your input. I hope a got it kind of right. I know there are a lot of deviations from the original. However, this is due to the kit (the Revell 1/1200 kits are awful, but there are no others) and my limitations as a modeler. A lot needed to be scratch build and added. What think?

Do you or others spot the deviations? Thx again and

best greetings to Italy

Jack


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Hi all,
I've just started building the 1/350 scale RN Roma battleship.
I noticed there's some debate about the hull colour below the waterline. I noticed in the video of the wreck that they show a section of one of the propeller shaft housings and it looks very much to be a red colour. Is this just the effects of corrosion after all these years? I dont see any green at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Huqb6KVt8

Some feedback would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Rick
Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:25 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Ciao Giampiero,

I am still chewing on the tactical value of having 1-2 aircrafts on the Littorio Class (Reggiane Re.2000) which can be only catapulted off the ship once. I understand, the Reggiane Re.2000 was a long range version, which after being catapulted could land on an airfield. However, I am just picturing a mission scenario. The Roma is on a mission, shots of the Re.2000 for fighter support or reconnaissance and that's it. Resupply with the Re.2000 is only possible in harbor or via a supply ship. It's like going to battle with one magazine in my rifle, shoot it off and that's it. Does'nt sound to my like a great idea. I don't get it?

Can you provide any background what the idea behind this concept was?

Secondly, do you happen to know what the color of the floats were (see pic)? I have seen them in all colors: Red, yellow, orange, khaki, light grey (as the superstructure). I have no clue what the original color is.

Thirdly, do you know what the color of the blast bags were (pls. see second picture)? White, khaki or grey?

Hope things ease slowly off in Italy.

Have a great day,

Jack


Attachments:
floats.jpg
floats.jpg [ 50.63 KiB | Viewed 728 times ]
blast bags.jpg
blast bags.jpg [ 83.12 KiB | Viewed 727 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:32 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Ciao Jack,

Hi Jack,

I'm glad to share, the information I know.


you too take care and stay healthy,

Regards
Giampiero
Post Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
@Giampiero,

Thank you very much for you detailed reply. Will paint the model as you suggested. Woow, you really have an interesting background. Thanks for sharing.

Mille grazie, take care and stay healthy,

Jack
Post Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Ciao Jack,

( but you seem to have a really deep knowledge of the Italian WW2 fleet.)
Yes the first model battleships Roma , Vittorio Veneto e Littorio in scale 1/700 from 1997 to 2011 ,they were mine in resin and Pe, then with the release of the Trumpeter I made the detail sets, even in 350 there was a limited edition of the battleship Roma made in 3D in resin, Pe and barrels between 2005 and 2007. I study military history and history of the Italian Navy
Post Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
JackSix wrote:
@Giampiero,

Good to here that you are well and thx for the reply. Sorry to bother you again, but you seem to have a really deep knowledge of the Italian WW2 fleet.

1. I played around with some colors based on your replies, pls. see the attached JPG no. 1. I know it is hard to judge from a computer, but pls. give it a try. Was the deck color more a "dark grey (A)" or a "black grey (B)"?
2. What about the camouflage color. Was it a "blue grey (1)", a "mid-blue grey (2)" or a "dark grey (3)"

Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I find it very hard to judge from historic b/w pictures and the painting guides/model paintings are all over the place.

A bonus question :smallsmile: I was wondering about flying the Reggiane Re.2000 Cat from the Littorio Class as of the begin 1943 (see pics. no. 2&3). It was not a float plane. It had the gear retracted and was shot of the catapult on a rigg or frame. What is the use? Where does it land when on sea? Did the pilot had to eject with a parachute? Or could you only fly off when close to land. I don't get it. Anyhow, with just one Re.2000 Cat. on board you could do just one flight as you could'nt recover the plane back to the ship. Do you have any idea why it was like that and what's the idea/use?

:thanks: again and stay healthy in my favorite city in Europe (was in Rome again just last summer)

Best regards,

Jack



Ciao Jack,

For hull camouflage , I use the Humbrol 67 , but the color 3 (dark blue grey) is ok , for the deck is better A dark grey , for the red of the bow stripes we use a brick red, not a bright red.

The Re 2000 fighters were embarked for air defense, Vittorio Veneto embarked 2, the Littorio (then Italy after 25 July 1943) 1 and the Roma 2 (but on 8 September 1 was embarked).

Once catapulted and air escorted, they reached the nearest base (Autonomy 740 km (400 nmi))


Best regards,
Giampiero
Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:43 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Giampiero wrote:
Ciao,

The ship was under construction in Ansaldo in Genoa like the Littorio, so in theory the superstructures should be those of the Littorio.
It was moved to avoid bombing by the French first in Brindisi and then in Trieste to be completed in the CRDA shipyards where Vittorio Veneto and Rome were built, perhaps if it had been completed, it would have had superstructures similar to the battleship Roma.

Saluti Giampiero

thanks!
Post Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
@Giampiero,

Good to here that you are well and thx for the reply. Sorry to bother you again, but you seem to have a really deep knowledge of the Italian WW2 fleet.

1. I played around with some colors based on your replies, pls. see the attached JPG no. 1. I know it is hard to judge from a computer, but pls. give it a try. Was the deck color more a "dark grey (A)" or a "black grey (B)"?
2. What about the camouflage color. Was it a "blue grey (1)", a "mid-blue grey (2)" or a "dark grey (3)"

Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I find it very hard to judge from historic b/w pictures and the painting guides/model paintings are all over the place.

A bonus question :smallsmile: I was wondering about flying the Reggiane Re.2000 Cat from the Littorio Class as of the begin 1943 (see pics. no. 2&3). It was not a float plane. It had the gear retracted and was shot of the catapult on a rigg or frame. What is the use? Where does it land when on sea? Did the pilot had to eject with a parachute? Or could you only fly off when close to land. I don't get it. Anyhow, with just one Re.2000 Cat. on board you could do just one flight as you could'nt recover the plane back to the ship. Do you have any idea why it was like that and what's the idea/use?

:thanks: again and stay healthy in my favorite city in Europe (was in Rome again just last summer)

Best regards,

Jack


Attachments:
Roma-1.jpg
Roma-1.jpg [ 56.51 KiB | Viewed 585 times ]
re2000-1.jpg
re2000-1.jpg [ 39.53 KiB | Viewed 585 times ]
re2000-2.jpg
re2000-2.jpg [ 63.19 KiB | Viewed 585 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
JackSix wrote:
@Ciao Giampiero,

Thx for your reply. I checked your Humbrol-Color codes (I am painting with Vallejo Model Color). So, if understand you correctly, the grey is a very dark grey, there is no blue in it? Is that correct?

All turrets are all painted on the top with the same color as the deck, the main (3x3 381-mm) AND the secondary (4x3 152-mm) arttillery. Correct?

I guess you are Italian. Just saw the news. I cross my fingers that the awful situation in Italy is going to ease off in the next days.

Thanks, stay healthy and take care of yourselves wherever you are. Greetings from Germany to Italy,

Jack



Ciao Jack,

Yes)
(So, if understand you correctly, the grey is a very dark grey, there is no blue in it? Is that correct?)

Yes also top turret 90 mm in the july 1943 (All turrets are all painted on the top with the same color as the deck, the main (3x3 381-mm) AND the secondary (4x3 152-mm) arttillery. Correct?)

All barrels in the july 1943 in the color dark grey camouflage

Yes Jack, thanks for your message, yes I live in Rome, the situation is difficult but we are at home, we go out only once a week for food expenditure.

Greetings
Best regards
Giampiero
Post Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RM Littorio class fans!  Reply with quote
Ciao,

The ship was under construction in Ansaldo in Genoa like the Littorio, so in theory the superstructures should be those of the Littorio.
It was moved to avoid bombing by the French first in Brindisi and then in Trieste to be completed in the CRDA shipyards where Vittorio Veneto and Rome were built, perhaps if it had been completed, it would have had superstructures similar to the battleship Roma.

Saluti Giampiero
Post Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:50 am

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