The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:41 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
What is the name in the logo in the top left? (hint it's something dot com):
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Question on Carley Floats on Duke of York:

How many it had?
What size were they? - 14ft X 9ft or 12ft X 7ft ?

Anyone know this? :wave_1:
Post Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:19 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
If you meand the catheads, then no; thesecare used for anchor handling. (as seen here
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=162889&start=60#p697647)
Post Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Talking of paravanes - the small-ish projections overboard near the anchors, with what appears to be a sheave - were they used when handling the paravanes? I've never been able to find a clear photo of them and don't think I've ever seen one where they are being used for anything.
Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:07 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
In response to the forefoot for paravene chains, a gentleman named Rod Macdonald wrote a book called “Force Z Shipwrecks of the South China Sea”, that has pictures and drawings of the upturned hull of POW. None are definitive but the author made dives on both ships and could possible help. Try www.rod-mcdonald.co.uk.
Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
PaulC wrote:
She seems (to me) in pretty clean condition - you can just make out the bow area.

Of the photos you posted - one bow shot is apparently from the same time as the two previous one's - from the weathering, the position of the guns and the light craft next to her (you can see its mast in the other two photos).

In any case, I was just making a suggestion - the IWM captions could very well be correct! :big_grin:


So basically, during Bismarck or as it headed into it, it was pretty ok and clean, repainted after the April appearance where that paint was pealing properly (just like on KGV) and as it returned to por it probably also had been worse for the wear after Bismarck chase (but if one models here post Bismarck fight one has to simulate damage in battle, above my paygrade). I think I will either build my Flyhawk PoW in April guise or in clean May 22 look. Thanks to all for this great help guys, seems I stumbled on one CASF thread that is regularly updated, haha which is refreshing. :)
Post Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Martocticvs wrote:
Which photo is that?


Attachment:
PoW 22-5-41.jpg
PoW 22-5-41.jpg [ 52.3 KiB | Viewed 286 times ]


Taken presumably by the same aircraft that photographed Hood on that date.

Attachment:
Hood & Prince Of Wales 22 May 1941.JPG
Hood & Prince Of Wales 22 May 1941.JPG [ 78.89 KiB | Viewed 286 times ]


She seems (to me) in pretty clean condition - you can just make out the bow area.

Of the photos you posted - one bow shot is apparently from the same time as the two previous one's - from the weathering, the position of the guns and the light craft next to her (you can see its mast in the other two photos).

In any case, I was just making a suggestion - the IWM captions could very well be correct! :big_grin:
Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 10:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
That's a fair point, I am just relaying what IWM has to say.

Also from IWM, we have Prince of Wales in April 1941, but looking a lot fresher...
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138246
... at first glance, that is. Look closer, and the same weathering is present around the bow waterline.

All the photos with this weathering carry April dates there (bar one that is undated).
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138223
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138248
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205119371
(https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138252)

I've not yet seen any other date proposed, of course that does not mean that the April date is correct. It may be that PoW's first coat of HFG was as bad wearing as KGV's, of course... She appears to have been in a camo scheme by August, so there is quite a limited window for it.

All of that said... radar. In various photos, both types 282 (aerials on the pom-pom directors) and 285 (aerials on the HACS directors) radar appear to be present, which I think must place it after her May refit. UPs are still fitted though, so before the June-July refit.

PaulC wrote:
But for sure, she was not so weathered on May 22, 1941, from the photo of her taken then when south of the Faeroes on the way to the DS.

Which photo is that?

[EDIT] Found a better history for the ship. Looks like the 282s and 285s were fitted during her fitting out. Log excerpts suggest she remained in Rosyth for all of June and much of July. During this time, she received a type 273 radar, which is definitely not present in those photos. That broadens rather than narrows the window, based on radar. I agree it seems more likely to be after the battle, though.
Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Martocticvs wrote:
PoW, April 1941.


Hmmmm....do you really think that's accurate?

Think about it.... PoW steamed from Rosyth to Scapa on March 24-25. During April she was carrying out various working up exercises in and around Scapa. She had a full power trial on May 8. Would that have caused such marked weathering?

I could be wrong, but that degree of weathering looks more to be from days of high speed steaming which she did during the Bismarck operation. After refueling at Hvalfiord, she left for Rosyth on the May 28, arriving on the 30th.

The coastline in the background could be the Scottish coast (though admittedly it could also be from Scapa).

Here's another photo obviously taken at the same time (from the Maritimequest website):

Image

But for sure, she was not so weathered on May 22, 1941, from the photo of her taken then when south of the Faeroes on the way to the DS.

Paul
Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi Pascalemod, EJ and yourself are correct as far as the paravane foot is concerned. From the image of PoW you can see there are a few bits missing from her, B turret UP for one. I can tell you from her log that in April after her arrival at Scapa the crew exercised paravanes and degaussing, so something was fitted.


Her crew exercised all the usual things during April, astern steaming, emergency steam steering engines, main engines, trailing shafts, rdf trials were also carried out as she had 285 and 282 and 281 fitted as well as 284 where as King Geoege V had 279 and 284 as far as I know.

As far as I know 507a and 507b were the same shade the only difference being 507a had no enamel added.

Hope this helps a little bit!

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 4:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Martocticvs wrote:
Google Image search to the rescue! https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138224

PoW, April 1941.


So I guess the questions are, was it repainted after this date for Bismarck action, is it 507A or Bbin that oic?
Post Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 1:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Google Image search to the rescue! https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138224

PoW, April 1941.
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:02 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
Well, there are lots of pictures showing 4 paravanes behind the fwd breakwater of HMS PoW, and you can see the chains at the bow on every photograph so it's fairly obvious they were used :wave_1: . But not on the pic of her during her launch, in dry dock (Rosyth 1940). The shell expansion plan also shows the paravane clump. The drawing that shows it is as fitted 1941. The lines drawing from 1937 does not show them. So, an additional would make sense. Pics of HMS DoY during fitting out already shows the paravane chains in place


Nice. I started a build thread on it now in WIP section. :) gonna be adding the little clump as next first thing!

Meanwhile here is to think about smth. Which date is this from? Really liking that weathering on the hull! Sometime after Bismarck? Or already in summer sometime?


Attachments:
large_000000.jpg
large_000000.jpg [ 46.15 KiB | Viewed 467 times ]
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:48 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Well, there are lots of pictures showing 4 paravanes behind the fwd breakwater of HMS PoW, and you can see the chains at the bow on every photograph so it's fairly obvious they were used :wave_1: . But not on the pic of her during her launch, in dry dock (Rosyth 1940). The shell expansion plan also shows the paravane clump. The drawing that shows it is as fitted 1941. The lines drawing from 1937 does not show them. So, an additional would make sense. Pics of HMS DoY during fitting out already shows the paravane chains in place
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:

Didn't notice that before... and weirdly enough, the builders plans do show these paravane bow clumps...


See? Now this is me, but I like to go with common sense when approaching these questions. Did Germans have a boot topping on their ships in WW1? Some say no, and cite a bad photo. I say yes because it is logical to have one. Did Washington paint its turret tops or not because some say in early 1942 they werent painted based on bad photos. I say yes because it was a standard policy. And so on.

here we have to ask / did they use paravanes on PoW? As far as I can tell, yes. They used them on all large warships, didnt they? Why would one KGV class (and not first in class) Lack it? I say it needs to be added. So I will add it. QEs, Repulse/Renown, Hood, other KGVs / all had it. Hence, I believe PoW is no exception and needs to have it.
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
This is a nice shot of HMS KGV after hitting Punjabi showing the paravane lead on the foot of the bow. The characteristic forward outline is present; it's not a plate or such but faired into the hull.

Image HMS KING GEORGE V AFTER COLLISION WITH HMS PUNJABI. 17 MAY 1942, GLADSTONE DOCK, LIVERPOOL. HMS KING GEORGE V IN THE DOCK FOR REPAIRS AFTER RETURNING TO THE UNITED KINGDOM FROM ICELAND FOLLOWING HER COLLISION WITH HMS PUNJABI ON 1 MAY 1942. PUNJABI WAS SLICED IN TWO AND LOST.. © IWM (A 9950) IWM Non Commercial License

In a 1940 pic it's not present though on KGV

Image THE REFIT OF HMS KING GEORGE V. 1940, ROSYTH, IN DRY DOCK.. © IWM (A 1494) IWM Non Commercial License

or POW

Image HMS PRINCE OF WALES IN DRY DOCK. 1940, ROSYTH.. © IWM (A 9407) IWM Non Commercial License

Didn't notice that before... and weirdly enough, the builders plans do show these paravane bow clumps...
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:

I don't seen anything on this pic and on any of the IWM pics showing HMS PoW in dock...

Attachment:
hms_prince_of_wales_01.jpg


IN fairness KGV has similar pic without it. May be it was installed later? Im with you btw, I think not needed to install as well just wanna be sure.
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 4:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
pascalemod wrote:
EJFoeth wrote:
That's the Paravane Bow Clump and should have two holes through it, horizontally spaced. HMS Prince of Wales did not seem to have it. With KGV it an extension faired into the hull, not at all like a plat plate (see IWM images oof KGV in dock).

So, not sure but probably didnt have?
?


I don't seen anything on this pic and on any of the IWM pics showing HMS PoW in dock...

Attachment:
hms_prince_of_wales_01.jpg
hms_prince_of_wales_01.jpg [ 124.69 KiB | Viewed 510 times ]
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
That's the Paravane Bow Clump and should have two holes through it, horizontally spaced. HMS Prince of Wales did not seem to have it. With KGV it an extension faired into the hull, not at all like a plat plate (see IWM images oof KGV in dock).

So, not sure but probably didnt have?

DavidP wrote:
yes but would not call it a hood but is a triangular shape steel plate with at least 1 hole it for the cable\chain to go thru it.


I was building Hood, so I wrote Hood. haha. Yes, steel plate. But you say it belonged on PoW? I see launch photos of KGV and PoW, none have had it installed, and when in dry dock in 1940 PoW didnt have it also.


Anyone else? We are not certain then even on this detail. Hmm.. I know Hood had it. Warspite had it. They all kinda had it, why would PoW NOT have it?
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
That's the Paravane Bow Clump and should have two holes through it, horizontally spaced. HMS Prince of Wales did not seem to have it. With KGV it an extension faired into the hull, not at all like a plat plate (see IWM images oof KGV in dock).
Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS King George V class (WWII) fans  Reply with quote
yes but would not call it a hood but is a triangular shape steel plate with at least 1 hole it for the cable\chain to go thru it.
Post Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:12 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group