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Topic review - At 'Em Arizona Fans!
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Well, uh, the artist is definitely an animator, but their I would struggle to classify their knowledge of the ship and the attack as even Wikipedia deep.
Post Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:41 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Audio in English, French, Portuges, Spanish. You have to set the audio language in the parameters menu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZI_g6WMbCk
Post Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 11:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
Jim, go thru this link by Model Monkey. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=163596&start=860


Direct post link for future users
Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
Jim, go thru this link by Model Monkey. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=163596&start=860



Thanks. Looks like he already nailed it!
Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi All, I'm back after a longer delay than I had hoped... I haven't completely caught-up on the thread since my last post, but looking at the past few posts, I will look through what I have and see if I can find more on the veg locker "roof" as well as the incinerator.
Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
This is a link to Arizona's 1941 Booklet of General Plans on Researcher@Large (Tracy White) website.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 85-2_a.jpg


http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... B39_09.jpg
Post Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Does anyone have any photos / drawings of the Arizona's bilge keels after she was blistered?
I'm looking for photos showing where they start, end and basic shape.
The drawings I have might not be accurate enough for what I'm doing

This is for a 1/96 model, so the detail will show.

James
Post Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:05 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
[/quote]
As you can imagine from AZ paint color "discussions," people have come to their own conclusions about many features of the ship and will doggedly attack anyone or anything not consistent with those personal conclusions.
[/quote]

LOL! More on that coming soon...
Post Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks, Matt!

Every photo and video still helps!
Post Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
ModelMonkey wrote:
Here's the best photo I have of the incinerator. I am hoping someone will have better photos.

Not much, but gives some references of height

Attachment:
Arizona Incinerator.PNG
Arizona Incinerator.PNG [ 280.78 KiB | Viewed 18304 times ]


Attachment:
Arizona Incinerator 2.PNG
Arizona Incinerator 2.PNG [ 314.54 KiB | Viewed 18304 times ]


Taken from a passing boat but camera is just under level with the boat deck, so maybe you can make a educated guess from the splinter shields and the height of the forward superstructure.

Matt
Post Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 2:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
DavidP wrote:
do you know what the shape as in the length & width of the incinerator as I've seen drawings of it but not height?

That's the challenge: uncertain shape, uncertain precise dimensions including height, and uncertain details.

Here's the best photo I have of the incinerator. I am hoping someone will have better photos.


Attachments:
BB-39 Arizona 193x NH 93550 cropped.jpg
BB-39 Arizona 193x NH 93550 cropped.jpg [ 59.82 KiB | Viewed 18333 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
I'm inclined to believe the area was planked due to the bolt pattern evident in the picture Jim included on this post. I wnet looking to see if I had any better shots but no go.


I'm inclined to think so, too. I was really hoping that someone had found some high-res photos taken at Puget Sound during her October, 1940 - January, 1941 refit that showed much of the boat deck they would share with us. The best photos I have are pre-1940 refit and the veggie locker roof in all of those 1930s photos looks like painted steel.

I'm in the process of designing a 1941 AZ boat deck and casemate for sale in several popular scales within the next few weeks. As with most products released, people will challenge details of the design. This is particularly true with subjects modelers have a strong connection to (Arizona, Hood, Titanic, Bismarck, Yamato). So the boat deck model's features need to be defensible. As you can imagine from AZ paint color "discussions," people have come to their own conclusions about many features of the ship and will doggedly attack anyone or anything not consistent with those personal conclusions.

Because of its size, a 3D-printed boat deck will be expensive, especially the 1/350 scale deck, so I want to be able to offer the most accurate product possible based on as much hard evidence as can be found. Without hard evidence, it will be important to at least base features on the consensus of those who have studied the ship thoroughly from the best references presently available.

Sometimes we have to accept that we just don't know with any certainty what a specific feature looked like, e.g. the incinerator, and I will make some design choices based on reasonable conclusions from the best references available.

In this case, I will proceed with a planked veggie locker roof for 1941. I hope to release a pre-1940 refit boat deck, too, sometime later this year. That product will have a steel veggie locker roof consistent with available photos.

So next question, has anyone found photos or video stills of the incinerator?
Post Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:22 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I'm inclined to believe the area was planked due to the bolt pattern evident in the picture Jim included on this post. I wnet looking to see if I had any better shots but no go.
Post Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 1:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Thanks, Hank and Jeff!

Jeff Sharp wrote:
Hi Steve,
Go back to page 118 on this thread. Jim Azelton addresses the planking on top of the veggie locker.
Jeff

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12942&start=2340#p848388

Jim's conclusion is a logical conclusion based on general arrangement drawings (which are authoritative references to be sure). The problem with the G.A. drawings is that details drawn on them don't match photos of the ship. For example, like the 1938 G.A. drawings Jim refers to, the 1931 G.A. drawings also state that the veggie locker roof was to be planked with fir. But no photos I have yet seen show any planking on the veggie locker roof at any time. All of the photos I have access to show what appears to be painted steel on the v.l. roof, no planks, including the 1931 photo shown below. Additionally, none of AZ's general arrangement drawings show a railing over a coaming separating the boat deck from the roof of the veggie locker. But photos very clearly show that feature. The railing spans the main mast's forward tripod legs (noted in the cropped photo here).

This is why I am specifically asking if anyone has photos or video stills of the veggie locker roof taken in 1941 or close to 1941.

Thanks again for all the thoughtful consideration!


Attachments:
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 Large 04 cropped.jpg
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 Large 04 cropped.jpg [ 298.56 KiB | Viewed 18489 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi Steve,
Go back to page 118 on this thread. Jim Azelton addresses the planking on top of the veggie locker.
Jeff

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12942&start=2340#p848388
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Steve,

You are entirely correct - the close up plan I posted was of the interior of the veg. locker, not the boat deck level which would be as you described -
Attachment:
close up of veg. lckr 1931 boat deck level.JPG
close up of veg. lckr 1931 boat deck level.JPG [ 42.85 KiB | Viewed 18515 times ]

Here is the correct close up of the boat deck level plan over the veg. locker area. Sorry about that - As for the answer to your question, well....we're back to square 1!!! :doh_1:

The size of the wood decking, the 1931 PENNSYLVANIA Main Deck plan calls out the main deck planking as being 3 1/2" thick; the superstructure deck planking is NOT noted - however, the MISSOURI Plan Book states that her upper level decking was 2" thick (01 Level), 1 1/2" thick 02/03 Levels). I think one could assume that this size would have been std. throughout the Navy, but that is only my assumption and not based on fact for the older battleships/cruisers. Wood plank width for the IOWAs was 5" on main deck & 01 Level. Relating these sizes to the PA class battleship may not be relevant.

Once again, hope this helps...

Hank
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:23 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
I don't know, and the planking width question is irrelevant to my purposes. Can you answer the initial question from authoritative sources such as 1941 photos - was the vegetable locker roof planked in 1941?
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Hi Hank,

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration!

The Pennsy plan in your post appears to be of the inside of the vegetable locker, rather than the roof. Pennsy plans I have show a 5" practice loader on the v.l. roof, oriented fore-aft, with other detail differences compared to Arizona's v.l. roof. Photos of Pennsy don't show the area well enough to tell whether or not the v.l. roof was planked under the practice loader. (AZ's practice loader was located differently, oriented laterally on the boat deck, port side, just aft of the port side boat stack.)

Pennsy's 1942 Mare Island photos show that a large bulkwark, no doubt serving as a splinter shield, was added to the periphery of Pennsy's v.l. roof. The deck under the practice loader isn't visible, unfortunately, obscured behind a Chicago piano tub and the v.l. locker roof bulwark. Here's a close-up:
Attachment:
BB38 1942.02.26 013803g cropped.jpg
BB38 1942.02.26 013803g cropped.jpg [ 123.07 KiB | Viewed 18573 times ]


AZ's 1931 general arrangement drawings indicate that the v.l. roof was intended to be planked with 2.5 inch fir (planks 2.5 inches wide or 2.5 inches thick? - the Pennsy photo at the bottom of this post tends to indicate just 2.5 inches wide, very narrow indeed).
Attachment:
32093-008-001-0250 small cropped.jpg
32093-008-001-0250 small cropped.jpg [ 296.7 KiB | Viewed 18573 times ]

Attachment:
32093-008-001-0250 small cropped 2.jpg
32093-008-001-0250 small cropped 2.jpg [ 333 KiB | Viewed 18573 times ]


The problem is that the post-reconstruction photos just don't look like the v.l roof was planked at all, and that the entire periphery of the v.l. roof is enclosed by 3-bar railing over a raised coaming, including a coaming at the front edge of the v.l roof/aft edge of the casemate. The v.l roof appears to be separated from the boat deck by railing over coaming. This is distinctly different than the general arrangement plans. See:
Attachment:
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 Large 04 cropped.jpg
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 Large 04 cropped.jpg [ 298.56 KiB | Viewed 18573 times ]


G.A. drawings differing from actual construction is not unusual; general arrangement drawings are typically different than what was actually built by the yard. Thus the need for photos. What I don't have is good photos of the v.l. roof about 1941. What did it look like then? Was the v.l. roof planked or painted or both in 1941 or was it just painted steel? Was the 3-bar railing over coaming that appears in 1931 photos still there in 1941? Lots of questions.

David is correct that seeing actual planks in photos is very difficult. All we may have is color to go by. He's an example of Pennsy's planked boat deck as it appeared at Mare Island in 1942. Note that individual planks are very narrow, maybe just 2.5 inches wide judging by the length of the sailor's foot and what is stated on G.A. drawings. On a scale model in most popular scales, planks this narrow would likely be invisible. Construction drawings indicate that the planks were of "fir", not teak, perhaps a Great Depression-era cost-saving measure?
Attachment:
BB-38 1942 013839.jpg
BB-38 1942 013839.jpg [ 78.01 KiB | Viewed 18573 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
Steve,

I've compared your posted photos to similar ones of PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) and the deck over the veg. locker on her is also a lighter gray than the corresponding painted surfaces adjacent to this area. So, I went to my scanned plans of PENNSY and looked at the overhead plan view of her amidships area - here is a close up of this plan -
Attachment:
close up of veg. lckr 1931.JPG
close up of veg. lckr 1931.JPG [ 97.89 KiB | Viewed 18581 times ]

If you notice, there is a callout note regarding the planking over this area. These plans were dated 12-08-31, so relatively during the overhaul similar to AZ. I also do have one overhead photo of PENNSY where it appears that there is decking in place, but this photo, just as yours, is not clear or close enough to make a verifiable determination, etc.

As for the lighter tone of gray in the photo mentioned above, it could possibly be that the metal deck or wood decking was painted either a very light gray or aluminum in order to reflect sunlight - just a wild guess!

Hope this is of some help,

Hank
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: At 'Em Arizona Fans!  Reply with quote
This why I asked for any photographic evidence. 1930s photos show the vegetable locker roof is much lighter than nearby decks known to have been planked. In photos, the lightness and tone of the vegetable locker roof match the gray-painted steel bulkheads nearby. The tone change from light to dark occurs in a sharp line along the rear of the casemate which appears to be a raised coaming.

I am seeking authoritative photographic evidence explaining why the vl. locker roof is much lighter than the planked decks in 1931 post-reconstruction photos and Jon's screen capture.

A reasonable guess at an explanation at this time is that the vegetable locker roof was not planked when the photos were taken. Happy to be proven wrong. If that is true and the v.l. roof was not planked, is there any photographic evidence that shows planking installed by 1941?


Attachments:
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 crop 04.jpg
BB-39 Arizona 1931-03-02 crop 04.jpg [ 276.74 KiB | Viewed 18589 times ]
2023-04-23 (2).png
2023-04-23 (2).png [ 1.55 MiB | Viewed 18589 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:17 am

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