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Topic review - Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Hi Maxim
thank you for that emendation i will adjust accordingly and appreicate even the smallest detail in my search for the best i can do.

yes there was a lot that went missing after the war and the bombing, well that is another topic it is something i abhorred and still do. but thanks for that thought maybe someday they will find the records. would hope or think there would be mulitple places such important data would be recorded. I may try searching long ago forums to see if by chance some surviving veteran may have said something. My Grandfather knew some of the High Seas Officers including the fine man who wrote that remarkable book on the SMS Derfflinger.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
The rear mast was partially black.

The documentation was much more likely lost during Second World War (bombing) or afterwards, when the archives had been captured by the Allies.
Post Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 11:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Maxim and 81542

thank you both very much for your generous sharing so fast. Maxim your models are very very nice. such fine detail. Mine are a bit smaller but i will try my best to get them right. I appreciate the info on the linoleum It was being used more and more in ships in that era and later, it was an alternative that was affordable and fairly easy to replace more than wood decks. 81542 thank you for that note on the gray colour. I was able after some years of research to find the colour data for the RN but not for the High Seas Fleet. Many records were lost at the end of the war during the turmoil with the revolt of the 'red" crews on board many ships and ashore. The Navy was essentially gutted by the sad events of Scapa and after that, and what is surprising is how much did in fact survive. I will hope my estimate of the grays is somewhat accurate and adjust if and when data can be found.

It is interesting to note that some of the masts were black, and for a while i wondered and then realized it was due to the coal smoke that they decided to actually paint the aft masts that would blacken anyway. An interesting accomodation that other Navies did also. My grandfather who was a USN naval officer in WWI and WWII said back then when his ships ran on coal, coaling ship was a dirty, filthy all hands up to the captain matter, and it took days after to get the ship clean again.

thank you both gentlemen for your kind assistance. i will share pictures of my work as i advance further.

Chris
Post Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 11:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Chris,

I attempted to obtain an answer as to the specifications of the paints used for the Imperial German Navy's greys used in the '96er Grau colour scheme (See the thread under Camouflage and Coatings). Wefalk provided an answer, the kernel of which is that they may be in the official archives but have not been found yet.

81542
Post Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 8:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
I will not comment on the precise grey colours, but there were two different colours used: a darker one up to the top of the bulwarks midships and a lighter one above on the hull and the superstructure. The deck was planked midships, the forecastle and poop had linoleum on it, which was in a very dark reddish brown, the steel decks were black.

I am not aware of any colour photos, which could be accurate.

Some photos of my interpretation of SMS Emden:
http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php/modelle/112-lars/4060-deutscher-geschuetzter-kreuzer-emden-1700-hp-models-von-lars-scharff

A (slightly dusty) deck view:
Image

Image

Image
Post Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 11:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Hopefully some who posted here are still around. I am working on two scales of the SMS Emden, one 300 and one 2400,

i need if posisble to verify the standard SMS High Seas Fleet gray that was used on hull and superstructure. I know it was a light gray but have seen various versions of it used, some with a green tint. I am a profesional artist so I am always determined if possible to use accurate colours.

I believe the gray was a neutral tone, ie not blue or greenish but a pale straight gray.

I also need to know about decks. I believe big ships, BC and above had wooden decks of a light colour but cruisers appear to have used brown linoleum from the model pics of the Emden I see here. Some variation on the open fore bridge and the other deck surfaces seems possible. If anyone can share accurate photos of both the hull colour and the deck colours it would be much appreciated.

There are older posts with photos of one of the Emden's guns preserved and possibly the gray on it is accurate? that would be a windfull but maybe has been repainted many times.

help on this much appreciated.

Chris
Post Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 5:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
thebunkerparodie wrote:
Anyone have information regarding dresden conception stage? I founded some on emdem but not on him and I also founded a weird drawing who mention 12 10,5cm gun instead of 10.

Why do you expect different designs for sister ships, which differed only in regard propulsion, because Dresden was used to test turbines? And which were anyway gradual improvements of the earlier classes, which were very similar?

12 guns were used on the next class, the Kolberg class. Perhaps somebody mixed up the Dresden and Kolberg class, because the later had originally a very similar bridge?
Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
This is good reading on SMS Emden by Edward B Proud .What happened after her sinking is amazing .


Attachments:
Emden.jpg
Emden.jpg [ 65.16 KiB | Viewed 1567 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:06 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Anyone have information regarding dresden conception stage? I founded some on emdem but not on him and I also founded a weird drawing who mention 12 10,5cm gun instead of 10.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:05 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Quote:
I served on a Gearing class Can back in the 60's. Twice the horse power, 75% faster, much smaller 4 blade screw diameter.


So, you can compare the layout of a Gearing class much better with Dresden than with Emden. But with half the horse power and a much less efficient hull shape. Remember, Dresden was one of the first German cruisers using steam turbines (like the Gearing) whilst Emden still had to rely on reciprocating steam engines.
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/350 SMS EMDEN PROPELLERS  Reply with quote
Attachment:
IMG_0973 (640x480).jpg
IMG_0973 (640x480).jpg [ 32.28 KiB | Viewed 2507 times ]
PME wrote:
...
I have a set of blueprints @ 1/100 drawn back in the 70's. The notes say diameter was 4.3M (14 ft). But in the same drawing print, the diameter is 7.7'.

The truth is that there is no way the Emden swung a 14' prop on shafts extending normally. Propeller blade sweep would have extend below the keel and also sliced into the hull....


Hi Phil,

I took a closer look at the drawing you included, and there is really something wrong with it. The prop circle shown is 2.3 metres in diameter (as can be seen from the rectangular grid over the plan), but that is the prop diameter of Emden's half-sister Dresden! How come?

Well, I think I found the answer to that:
Attachment:
plan-emden026.jpg
plan-emden026.jpg [ 36.21 KiB | Viewed 2507 times ]

This plan I found years ago, with the weapon crest of Emden and all, but with FOUR props of Dresden size.
I see many similarities with your plan, and it seems someone simply erased the two outer props. So then the props and the brackets on your are plan are way too small.

Satisfied? I also include here a clipping from a set of Emden construction plans showing the correct brackets.
Attachment:
Rear frame Emden.jpg
Rear frame Emden.jpg [ 81.58 KiB | Viewed 2507 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Here is the latest from the Cocos dive shop:

Hi Phil, greetings from paradise.

The image with the diver behind the prop was captured by my wife Karen Willshaw. We think that the stated diameter does sound correct.

Unfortunately it is rare that we get to visit North Keeling and the wreck of SMS Emden so checking it for you is not likely.

Cheers Dieter & Karen
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
PS....I agree the model's shaft alleys are poor.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:28 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Thanks. I am 80% convinced you are correct. Not 100% I have the same drawing set you referred to. How do I reconcile the hull profile (here, the top photo, same drawing set) showing a smaller propeller diameter and narrower shaft spacing than would allow 14' propellers? Should I believe the hull profile or the 4.3M note. I served on a Gearing class Can back in the 60's. Twice the horse power, 75% faster, much smaller 4 blade screw diameter. ....so I requested a diver from The Cocos / Keeling dive shop to take measurements next time on the wreck. Then we will know.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/350 SMS EMDEN PROPELLERS  Reply with quote
PME wrote:
Attachment:
The attachment IMG_0973 (640x480).jpg is no longer available


The propellers supplied with Revell's 1/350 Emden look all wrong. Are they? What was the actual diameter?

Model props are 0.48" diameter. It works out to 14' @ 1:1.

The Revell propeller shafts stick out wide and down, at an odd angle. Historical reference show prop shafts extending directly aft parallel with longitudinal center line.

I have a set of blueprints @ 1/100 drawn back in the 70's. The notes say diameter was 4.3M (14 ft). But in the same drawing print, the diameter is 7.7'.

The truth is that there is no way the Emden swung a 14' prop on shafts extending normally. Propeller blade sweep would have extend below the keel and also sliced into the hull.

Wish Revell would have gotten this right. One of my gripes about the kit.

One of Emdens props is still existent at the wreck site, North Keeling Island. One blade is fully exposed vertically. I have not been able to reach any divers who have been there and can tells the reality.


According to the most authoritative source (Erich Gröner - Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945) encyclopedia, the diameter of Emden's props were indeed 4.3 metres, so 14.1 feet in British measurements. Revell's props are exactly spot on at 12.3mm or 0.48 inch. So that's all quite in order. Also the prop shafts and A-brackets are all right.

Revell made an error though making the prop shaft guides on the hull far too small, this causing the prop shafts only to be mounted at an awkward angle, not at all realistic. In my view these shaft guides should be replaced by Evergreen .100" tubing, and an appropriate sliver of plastic added to make them sit at the right distance. In fact I glued the shafts/brackets ad the Evergreen tubes together first, nicely lined up, and the plastic sliver last. Then it all looks like this (Dresden kit unaltered shown for comparison):
Attachment:
Dresden-Emden2.jpg
Dresden-Emden2.jpg [ 110.42 KiB | Viewed 2571 times ]
Attachment:
Dresden-Emden1.jpg
Dresden-Emden1.jpg [ 105.06 KiB | Viewed 2571 times ]


Quote:
One of Emdens props is still existent at the wreck site, North Keeling Island. One blade is fully exposed vertically. I have not been able to reach any divers who have been there and can tells the reality.
As far as can be guessed from the photos the prop blade stands about a man's length tall, so about 6-7 feet. That's perfect in line with the diameter of 14 feet, as should be expected. No need to find a diver to go down with a tape measure. The problem doesn't lie with the props, but with the hull and shaft guides as described above.
Post Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Another jpg


Attachments:
EMDEN 1.jpg
EMDEN 1.jpg [ 18.08 KiB | Viewed 2604 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Here are some current wreck photo's of one of Emden's propellers.


Attachments:
EMDEN3.jpg
EMDEN3.jpg [ 19.58 KiB | Viewed 2604 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:49 pm
  Post subject:  1/350 SMS EMDEN PROPELLERS  Reply with quote
Attachment:
File comment: DRAWING: EMDEN HULL/PROPELLER PROFILES
IMG_0973 (640x480).jpg
IMG_0973 (640x480).jpg [ 134.95 KiB | Viewed 2648 times ]


The propellers supplied with Revell's 1/350 Emden look all wrong. Are they? What was the actual diameter?

Model props are 0.48" diameter. It works out to 14' @ 1:1.

The Revell propeller shafts stick out wide and down, at an odd angle. Historical reference show prop shafts extending directly aft parallel with longitudinal center line.

I have a set of blueprints @ 1/100 drawn back in the 70's. The notes say diameter was 4.3M (14 ft). But in the same drawing print, the diameter is 7.7'.

The truth is that there is no way the Emden swung a 14' prop on shafts extending normally. Propeller blade sweep would have extend below the keel and also sliced into the hull.

Wish Revell would have gotten this right. One of my gripes about the kit.

One of Emdens props is still existent at the wreck site, North Keeling Island. One blade is fully exposed vertically. I have not been able to reach any divers who have been there and can tells the reality.
Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
Unfortunately the plans of the Königsberg class I have do not show the torpedo tubes. The plans of Dresden and Emden, which I have, show different shapes of the lids of the tubes not fitting to the one shown. But I had not even expected the shape to be different for Dresden and Emden...
Post Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all SMS Emden/SMS Dresden fans  Reply with quote
I've come across this picture which was taken in a town called Utete in Tanzania. The concrete support was placed near the District Administration offices. Although there appears to have been a nameplate attached to the concrete at one time, there is no indication of i'ts origen today..... the steel door may well originate from the SMS Konigsberg which was destroyed by the Royal Navy while hiding in the delta of the Rufiji river during WW1 (1915).

The 'door' looks a lot like the torpedo hatch discussed in this thread previously.

What do the experts think....can this be a torpedo hatch from the Konigsberg, sistership of the Emden??

Regards
Dani

Attachment:
File comment: Utete Ship hatch
IMG_0933.1,jpg.jpg
IMG_0933.1,jpg.jpg [ 177.44 KiB | Viewed 3257 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:28 am

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