Author |
Message |
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Thanks Maarten. I've seen descriptions of US ship crests and figured there was something similar for other countries. I guess the Royal Navy needs a royal version of the Navy Heritage & History Command.
Thanks Maarten. I've seen [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Washington_(SSN-787)#Crest]descriptions of US ship crests[/url] and figured there was something similar for other countries. I guess the Royal Navy needs a royal version of the Navy Heritage & History Command.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:26 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Tracy White wrote: Certainly more than I had been able to find in my searches, thanks! I was mainly curious in the change in the orbs between the cruiser D68's crest and D89's Kevin posted above. Being American, my knowledge of symbology is more... corporate, so the change from a + in the orb to a ┬ (not sure if that will come through but it's similar to ASCII 194 was curious to me and I didn't know if there was a reason behind it. Hi Tracy, You're now really into the details! The orb (in German: Reichsapfel, in Latin: globus cruciger) in the Exeter crest is referring to the one of the ' Holy Roman Empire' (962-1806), which was mostly German in the first place! Richard Earl of Cornwall of the House Plantagenet (1209-1272) was one of these Roman-Kings (crowned in Aachen in 1257): this appointment wasn't hereditary. This is an image of the orb that was used in the empire. As this was more than 200 years ago no photo's seem to exist of it, and I have no clue whether this gem survived the abyss of time. The 'fleurons' on the arms of the cross seem a bit typical for this orb: the British orb doesn't have these. As for the empire itself: the name 'Roman' might be bewildering to an American, it refers to being "Roman Catholic" (but in reality the empire wasn't very religious or holy at all...) Addition: the 'regalia' did survive the times and are currently kept in the Hofburg in Vienna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Treasury,_ViennaAttachment:
Reichsapfel.jpg [ 53.08 KiB | Viewed 1422 times ]
For a explanation on various orbs of different countries look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globus_cruciger
[quote="Tracy White"]Certainly more than I had been able to find in my searches, thanks! I was mainly curious in the change in the orbs between the cruiser D68's crest and D89's Kevin posted above. Being American, my knowledge of symbology is more... corporate, so the change from a + in the orb to a ┬ (not sure if that will come through but it's similar to [url=https://www.ascii-code.com/194]ASCII 194[/url] was curious to me and I didn't know if there was a reason behind it.[/quote] Hi Tracy, You're now really into the details! The orb (in German: Reichsapfel, in Latin: globus cruciger) in the Exeter crest is referring to the one of the '[b]Holy Roman Empire[/b]' (962-1806), which was mostly [b]German[/b] in the first place! Richard Earl of Cornwall of the House Plantagenet (1209-1272) was one of these Roman-Kings (crowned in Aachen in 1257): this appointment wasn't hereditary.
This is an image of the orb that was used in the empire. As this was more than 200 years ago no photo's seem to exist of it, and I have no clue whether this gem survived the abyss of time. The 'fleurons' on the arms of the cross seem a bit typical for this orb: the British orb doesn't have these. As for the empire itself: the name 'Roman' might be bewildering to an American, it refers to being "Roman Catholic" (but in reality the empire wasn't very religious or holy at all...) Addition: the 'regalia' did survive the times and are currently kept in the Hofburg in Vienna: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Treasury,_Vienna[/url]
[attachment=0]Reichsapfel.jpg[/attachment] For a explanation on various orbs of different countries look here: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globus_cruciger[/url]
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 4:35 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Certainly more than I had been able to find in my searches, thanks! I was mainly curious in the change in the orbs between the cruiser D68's crest and D89's Kevin posted above. Being American, my knowledge of symbology is more... corporate, so the change from a + in the orb to a ┬ (not sure if that will come through but it's similar to ASCII 194 was curious to me and I didn't know if there was a reason behind it.
Certainly more than I had been able to find in my searches, thanks! I was mainly curious in the change in the orbs between the cruiser D68's crest and D89's Kevin posted above. Being American, my knowledge of symbology is more... corporate, so the change from a + in the orb to a ┬ (not sure if that will come through but it's similar to [url=https://www.ascii-code.com/194]ASCII 194[/url] was curious to me and I didn't know if there was a reason behind it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:21 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Tracy White wrote: Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)? https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=HMS_Exeter,_Royal_NavyAccording to this page the ship's crest was designed in 1928 adapted from the Exeter city coat of arms (Logical, eh?). The crowned red lion with the golden orb are from the helmet sign of the CoA, the waves (very fitting for a ship!) were already in the shield bearers' pegases' wings. Attachment:
Exeter.jpg [ 57.16 KiB | Viewed 1512 times ]
Now you ask about the symbology of all the elements: well the lion is an animal of power, red is a fiery colour of passion, the crown and the orb are symbols of worldly power, the waves are a symbol of the sea connecting the peoples of the world, something like this. Any further or deeper explanation might be found in the official description of the coat of arms of Exeter, there it says: "The crest itself is a red crowned lion holding a golden orb. This is for Richard Earl of Cornwall, Holy Roman Emperor. The same lion appears in the arms of Devon County Council and some of the towns and districts of Devon. The supporters are winged horses or pegases. The wings are charged with blue waves and thus is represented the river Exe which once made the city a major port." Satisfied?
[quote="Tracy White"]Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)?[/quote] [url]https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=HMS_Exeter,_Royal_Navy[/url] According to this page the ship's crest was designed in 1928 adapted from the Exeter city coat of arms (Logical, eh?). The crowned red lion with the golden orb are from the helmet sign of the CoA, the waves (very fitting for a ship!) were already in the shield bearers' pegases' wings.[attachment=0]Exeter.jpg[/attachment] Now you ask about the [u]symbology [/u]of all the elements: well the lion is an animal of power, red is a fiery colour of passion, the crown and the orb are symbols of worldly power, the waves are a symbol of the sea connecting the peoples of the world, something like this. Any further or deeper explanation might be found in the official description of the coat of arms of Exeter, there it says:
"The crest itself is a red crowned lion holding a golden orb. This is for Richard Earl of Cornwall, Holy Roman Emperor. The same lion appears in the arms of Devon County Council and some of the towns and districts of Devon. The supporters are winged horses or pegases. The wings are charged with blue waves and thus is represented the river Exe which once made the city a major port."
Satisfied?
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:30 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Tracy White wrote: Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)? No Tracy, unfortunately I do not.
[quote="Tracy White"]Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)?[/quote] No Tracy, unfortunately I do not.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 10:39 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)?
Thanks, Kevin - do you know of any resource that explains or details the symbology of the crest(s)?
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:14 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
And a plaque from my collection, although I may(?) have posted this one before.
Attachments: |
Destruction-of-Graf-Spee-plaque.jpg [ 160.21 KiB | Viewed 1766 times ]
|
And a plaque from my collection, although I may(?) have posted this one before.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:36 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Of some interest to some may be the below image which appears to be a per-production drawing of the cruiser Exeter's (68) crest (as opposed to D89's which as we know was circular). And a painting I have by artist Ross Watton ( https://www.rosswatton.com/index.html)
Attachments: |
HMS-Exeter-crest-drawing.jpg [ 102.58 KiB | Viewed 1771 times ]
|
Exeter-68-&-D89-crest.jpg [ 126.34 KiB | Viewed 1771 times ]
|
The-Spirit-of-HMS-EXETER.jpg [ 167.64 KiB | Viewed 1754 times ]
|
Of some interest to some may be the below image which appears to be a per-production drawing of the cruiser Exeter's (68) crest (as opposed to D89's which as we know was circular). And a painting I have by artist Ross Watton (https://www.rosswatton.com/index.html)
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:11 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Always on my search for details of the HMS Exeter at the time of the Battle of the River Plate, I have been looking for the rigging and battle ensigns at the time of the battle, and was pleasantly surprised finding that the captain ordered to hoist five battle ensigns (one report says 7.32m x 3.66m (24´x 12´), another report says 3.73m x 1.85m (12´x 6´)) battle ensigns from the main topmast, port and starboard yardarms, top mizzen and lower mizzen as the Exeter turned to engage the Admiral Graf Spee. So I guess that this painting is quite historical accurate (although it depicts only 4 battle ensigns). Only thing I would doubt about are the lines running from the masts to the jackstaff and the stern staff, would have been removed before entering combat. The other detail that I found interesting was that the signal flags "E322" (other report says "N322") were raised providing the bearing to the Graf Spee. That would be a nice detail I had not counted on adding to my HMS Exeter, but I will now. Marco
Always on my search for details of the HMS Exeter at the time of the Battle of the River Plate, I have been looking for the rigging and battle ensigns at the time of the battle, and was pleasantly surprised finding that the captain ordered to hoist five battle ensigns (one report says 7.32m x 3.66m (24´x 12´), another report says 3.73m x 1.85m (12´x 6´)) battle ensigns from the main topmast, port and starboard yardarms, top mizzen and lower mizzen as the Exeter turned to engage the Admiral Graf Spee. So I guess that this painting is quite historical accurate (although it depicts only 4 battle ensigns). Only thing I would doubt about are the lines running from the masts to the jackstaff and the stern staff, would have been removed before entering combat.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VDpdnCvl.jpg[/img]
The other detail that I found interesting was that the signal flags "E322" (other report says "N322") were raised providing the bearing to the Graf Spee. That would be a nice detail I had not counted on adding to my HMS Exeter, but I will now.
Marco
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:57 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
The 3D 'fly-around' of the wreck of HMS Exeter has recently been uploaded to YouTube by creator Stefan Draminski, just in time for the 81st anniversary of her sinking, along with HMS Encounter and USS Pope, on March 1st, 1942. For those so interested you can view it here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7IHTiv-T0
The 3D 'fly-around' of the wreck of HMS Exeter has recently been uploaded to YouTube by creator Stefan Draminski, just in time for the 81st anniversary of her sinking, along with HMS Encounter and USS Pope, on March 1st, 1942.
For those so interested you can view it here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7IHTiv-T0
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:26 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Not that I need any reminder of why I love British cruisers, but man, that is a fantastic photograph! A diorama of that would be something to see.
Not that I need any reminder of why I love British cruisers, but man, that is a fantastic photograph! A diorama of that would be something to see.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:17 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Going through my Exeter photo files and this one caught my eye so thought I'd post. And no, they are not baby seals hung out to dry on the sides of the ship, just men painting (I assume?). Taken I believe, if her 'ports schedule' for the time is correct, late 1938 (Nov / Dec) during her 38-39 South American cruise. And a belated thanks for that last input 81542.
Attachments: |
Exeter Grytviken South Georgia SA.jpg [ 688.52 KiB | Viewed 13680 times ]
|
Going through my Exeter photo files and this one caught my eye so thought I'd post. And no, they are not baby seals hung out to dry on the sides of the ship, just men painting (I assume?). :big_grin: Taken I believe, if her 'ports schedule' for the time is correct, late 1938 (Nov / Dec) during her 38-39 South American cruise.
And a belated thanks for that last input 81542.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:17 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Kevin,
A revision of my last post: the side plating has been extended aft to the fore funnel and the aircraft runways have been added. According to Tonks' Profile No 13 on the ship, this was carried out in late '31 during a refit at Devonport. She then went to the West Indies in January 1932 with the remainder of the Second Cruiser Squadron of the Home Fleet. If you believe my observation on the condition of the paintwork of the hull, it might be said that the image shows the ship in late '31. However, it could be even later. I can't give anymore information than that.
81542
Kevin,
A revision of my last post: the side plating has been extended aft to the fore funnel and the aircraft runways have been added. According to Tonks' Profile No 13 on the ship, this was carried out in late '31 during a refit at Devonport. She then went to the West Indies in January 1932 with the remainder of the Second Cruiser Squadron of the Home Fleet. If you believe my observation on the condition of the paintwork of the hull, it might be said that the image shows the ship in late '31. However, it could be even later. I can't give anymore information than that.
81542
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:52 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Sorry Kevin, I'm not much help on this one. However, judging from the state of the paintwork I'd hazard a guess that she was just out of the builder's on acceptance trials or fresh out of a dockyard refit.
81542
Sorry Kevin, I'm not much help on this one. However, judging from the state of the paintwork I'd hazard a guess that she was just out of the builder's on acceptance trials or fresh out of a dockyard refit.
81542
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:38 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Here is the full image gents, in the only size and res I have.
Can anyone discern anything that may date the image to other than '32?
Attachments: |
Exeter-supposedly May 1932.jpg [ 1.25 MiB | Viewed 13832 times ]
|
Here is the full image gents, in the only size and res I have.
Can anyone discern anything that may date the image to other than '32?
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:55 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
That's possible David. Unfortunately, the image is not clear enough to me. Whatever, getting the item out of the ship would have been a relatively simple seamanship evolution to the men of that era.
81542
That's possible David. Unfortunately, the image is not clear enough to me. Whatever, getting the item out of the ship would have been a relatively simple seamanship evolution to the men of that era.
81542
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:20 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Kevin,
I don't think that the float has slipped, it should have been properly secured and I'm sure that that would have been ensured. No, I think that it was deliberately slung that way. Concerning spare floats, a set for each aircraft would be logical: if you have a copy of the relevant drawing, you could check to see how many there was stowage for though additionals could have been safely lashed down on deck.
Interesting point that I hadn't considered before: it's still not clear, however, they could be using the extended forward piece of the port catapult as a derrick and the associated machinery to lower the item outboard. That may seem a bit odd but I've seen pictures of 15 and 11inch gun barrels being used as crane derricks so it may have been possible.
81542
Kevin,
I don't think that the float has slipped, it should have been properly secured and I'm sure that that would have been ensured. No, I think that it was deliberately slung that way. Concerning spare floats, a set for each aircraft would be logical: if you have a copy of the relevant drawing, you could check to see how many there was stowage for though additionals could have been safely lashed down on deck.
Interesting point that I hadn't considered before: it's still not clear, however, they could be using the extended forward piece of the port catapult as a derrick and the associated machinery to lower the item outboard. That may seem a bit odd but I've seen pictures of 15 and 11inch gun barrels being used as crane derricks so it may have been possible.
81542
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:14 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
81542 wrote: Kevin,I am inclined to agree with DavidP: it's a "pontoon," more correctly known as a float (from a seaplane). One is looking at the item from the top i.e. it is slung on its side: the things were quite wide. This seems odd but I guess that that it is what worked. There appears to be a similar item lying on the deck between the two funnels. Odd thing is, I can't quite make out how they are "working" the thing and why. Furthermore, is this an item that they are either disembarking or embarking and if the former why? Is it bits of an aircraft that is being landed as wreckage: there is a pale piece that is apparently onboard the inboard lighter, below the ship's after funnel? Is this part of an aircraft? An intriguing picture. 81542 Good point! Viewed like that it could certainly be a pontoon. Maybe(?) it had just 'slipped' in the sling hence why we see the profile as we do? Seeing there are two pontoons stored forward of the fore-funnel, did they carry two sets of spares (for two seaplanes) then? And I also noticed that 'pale' piece of something between small 'ship' and Exeter, like you I wonder what?
[quote="81542"]Kevin,I am inclined to agree with DavidP: it's a "pontoon," more correctly known as a float (from a seaplane). One is looking at the item from the top i.e. it is slung on its side: the things were quite wide. This seems odd but I guess that that it is what worked. There appears to be a similar item lying on the deck between the two funnels. Odd thing is, I can't quite make out how they are "working" the thing and why. Furthermore, is this an item that they are either disembarking or embarking and if the former why? Is it bits of an aircraft that is being landed as wreckage: there is a pale piece that is apparently onboard the inboard lighter, below the ship's after funnel? Is this part of an aircraft? An intriguing picture. 81542[/quote]Good point! Viewed like that it could certainly be a pontoon. Maybe(?) it had just 'slipped' in the sling hence why we see the profile as we do? Seeing there are two pontoons stored forward of the fore-funnel, did they carry two sets of spares (for two seaplanes) then? And I also noticed that 'pale' piece of something between small 'ship' and Exeter, like you I wonder what?
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:15 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
Kevin,
I am inclined to agree with DavidP: it's a "pontoon," more correctly known as a float (from a seaplane). One is looking at the item from the top i.e. it is slung on its side: the things were quite wide. This seems odd but I guess that that it is what worked. There appears to be a similar item lying on the deck between the two funnels. Odd thing is, I can't quite make out how they are "working" the thing and why. Furthermore, is this an item that they are either disembarking or embarking and if the former why? Is it bits of an aircraft that is being landed as wreckage: there is a pale piece that is apparently onboard the inboard lighter, below the ship's after funnel? Is this part of an aircraft? An intriguing picture.
81542
Kevin,
I am inclined to agree with DavidP: it's a "pontoon," more correctly known as a float (from a seaplane). One is looking at the item from the top i.e. it is slung on its side: the things were quite wide. This seems odd but I guess that that it is what worked. There appears to be a similar item lying on the deck between the two funnels. Odd thing is, I can't quite make out how they are "working" the thing and why. Furthermore, is this an item that they are either disembarking or embarking and if the former why? Is it bits of an aircraft that is being landed as wreckage: there is a pale piece that is apparently onboard the inboard lighter, below the ship's after funnel? Is this part of an aircraft? An intriguing picture.
81542
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:24 am |
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: |
Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans |
|
|
DavidP wrote: seaplane pontoon? I at first thought that, but it 'looks' larger than the two stored at far left.
[quote="DavidP"]seaplane pontoon?[/quote]
I at first thought that, but it 'looks' larger than the two stored at far left.
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:05 am |
|
|
|
|