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Topic review - Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Regarding the USS Boston and Canberra as Guided Missile Heavy Cruisers ( CAG ) does anybody know how were their radar suite changed in the various years/refits? They seem to be changed quite often.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
" ... they are still around in the navy ... " ???? Which the twin arm launchers or Terrier missiles?

All of the ships so equipped have been decommissioned and scrapped or made into museum pieces. Even the first few TICONDEROGA class CG's were decommissioned rather than upgrade them to vertical launchers.

The "replacement" missile "Standard" (now several versions) exist as vertical launch missiles.

Upgrading the first "operational" Anti-Air missile cruisers in the USN would have taken much more than simply replacement of missiles. The launchers were the first mod versions, and would need to be modified to launch the Standard missiles or be replaced with a newer launcher. The stowage and handling of the new missiles would require mods. Sensors would all need to be upgraded. All in all a very expensive proposal. Building of new CG's/DDG's in large numbers made more sense.

It could be argued that they were useful as gunfire ships and served multiple tours as such off Vietnam. But, with budget pressures from new construction and paying for ground fighting, somethings had to give.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Boston still had her launchers late 1960's early 70's but likely the missiles themselves got removed.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

Beancounter, OF COURSE!!! How could I forget??? Where are they now????? :huh: :huh: :huh:

Hank
Post Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Hank,

The decommissioning of a large number old ships in 1969 wasn't really about "pacifying" anyone except "beancounters". Decommissioning USS NEW JERSEY was part of "Peace Talks", but the real reason so many "Old-WWII era" ships were retired, was to free up funds for cost-overrun projects. The older ships were already being decommissioned in the early 1960s to make way for the Missile Conversions and New-Built Missile ships. By 1964 ALL of the Fletcher's in the Atlantic Fleet had been removed from Active Fleet duty with only NRT units and the DDE conversions remaining. Many destroyers and the few remaining "gun-cruisers" were kept in commission as Vietnam heated up for Gunfire support.

USS BOSTON (CAG-1) and CANBERRA (CAG-2) were reassigned as "gun support" off Vietnam in the mid-1960's rather than recommission any Heavy Cruisers from mothballs. BOSTON had her old - obsolete - Terrier missile launchers "decommissioned" in 1968 and she was reclassified as CA-69 again on 1 May 1968. She went on one last Gun-Line tour and was decommissioned in 1970.

USS CANBERRA was similarly reclassified as CA-70 on 1 May 1968. Her Terrier missile launchers were removed, but she was decommissioned before any additional work was done.

I doubt that either unit was going to get an "UPGRADE" to their missile systems. The cost involved and limited capability of those systems and the age of the two cruisers, made it unlikely. A study to determine the cost of upgrading the missile systems on these two cruisers, was likely done to justify decommissioning them as "not cost effective".

I'm unsure of when either ship last actually had "operational" Terrier missile systems functioning. Other than minor sensors upgrades, and removal of the outdated missile guidance systems, not much would have changed if they had not been decommissioned when they were.
Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 4:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
TZoli wrote:
Wiki mentions:

Quote:
While on her last Vietnam cruise thought and funding was given to overhauling Boston (and sister ship Canberra). Her Terrier missile system would have been upgraded to Standard Missile-ER with new radars and equipment for the modern missiles. Her gunnery systems, hull and electronics would have also been overhauled. With the reduction in defense spending, funds were reallocated to more modern ships and Boston sailed for a last visit and family day at her namesake city in late 1969 before decommissioning.


That the two Bostons would had been refitted with the new RIM-67 Standard ER missiles and associated guidance radars and likely updated other sensors as well.
Does somebody know what other changes might had been included? What radars would had been fitted or considered?


Tzoli,

CANBERRA was being refitted in Long Beach in late 1969. I was serving in USS NEW JERSEY as we prepared to take her to Bremerton, WA for decommissioning. I have a couple photos of NEW JERSEY at pier side with CANBERRA in the background - she was already undergoing a refit to her RADAR suite when I made this photo in Sept. '69 -
Attachment:
bb62sept69 (Large).jpg
bb62sept69 (Large).jpg [ 145.39 KiB | Viewed 4302 times ]

What exactly was being replaced or with I have no idea. Shortly after I took this photo we departed and I later heard that she was subsequently taken from Long Beach for decommissioning as well, without ever being put back into service. Part of the 1969 Nixon 50 ship cutback that took place to pacify the commies in North Vietnam.

Hank
Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
would probably be similar radars to a Leahy or Belknap class CG.

SPS48C, SPS43 with SPG55B's for missile fire control
Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Wiki mentions:

Quote:
While on her last Vietnam cruise thought and funding was given to overhauling Boston (and sister ship Canberra). Her Terrier missile system would have been upgraded to Standard Missile-ER with new radars and equipment for the modern missiles. Her gunnery systems, hull and electronics would have also been overhauled. With the reduction in defense spending, funds were reallocated to more modern ships and Boston sailed for a last visit and family day at her namesake city in late 1969 before decommissioning.


That the two Bostons would had been refitted with the new RIM-67 Standard ER missiles and associated guidance radars and likely updated other sensors as well.
Does somebody know what other changes might had been included? What radars would had been fitted or considered?
Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
When I was in grad school I lived in an old house with a couple of other climbers and sailors, we called the house 'Tumblehome". Yes the Tumblehome brings back images of sailing ships of the line with decks of canons and towering masts.

Tom
Post Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
As I recall the Baltimores didn't have tumblehome along the sides, but there was some from the "corners" of the square stern at the waterline and the founded main deck level.

However the Clevelands were (re)designed with tumblehome. After the Navy increased anti-aircraft guns and armor protection the ship was unstable. The contractor (New York Shipyards) proposed widening the hull at the waterline, producing tumblehome, and improving stability. Tumblehome was unusual in US Navy ships.

I always thought it gave the Clevelands a "nostalgic" appearance hailing back to the days of wooden ships and broadsides of smooth-bore cannons.

Phil
Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
This rounded deck configuration is unusual in that it (for a USN ship) incorporates a degree of tumblehome. I hadn't noticed this before but the aircraft handling considerations with the single crane make sense, this would have also reduced top weight a little. But then of course the light AA considerations in the final event overrode the aircraft handling niceties.

When needs must, the Devil drives!
Post Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
The round (a circular arc) stern at main deck level and square (ish) stern at the waterline is something that some modelers miss.It is tricky to model.

Phil
Post Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 11:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
The stern of the Macon should look more like that on the Rochester, with the off-center hangar hatch and more rounded deck. In the late 1950's, she even had the starboard side twin 3" mount on the stern. That was removed in order to install a Regulus missile launching system. The mod included sponsons for the launch and changing the hangar hatch to slide sideways, as seen in this shot of the Los Angeles: https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/135/0413506.jpg Only the first 4 Baltimore's, with the two cranes, had the more square stern. The switch to the single crane caused them to round off the corners of the stern at the deck level in order to help hoisted aircraft avoid bouncing into the corners of the deck. Ironically, when the twin 40MM were installed there, it negated the benefits of rounding the stern. The waterline remained more squared off, giving the complex contours characteristic of the later Baltimore's, the Oregon City's and the Cleveland variants. The off-center hatch also was part of the "round stern, single crane" mod starting with Pittsburgh.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:21 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
TZoli,

Excellent! Thanks! I think it helps with the colors.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Here are my drawings of 4 units of the classes:
CA-68 USS Baltimore as looked like in 1944/45:
Attachment:
Baltimore 1944.png
Baltimore 1944.png [ 1.23 MiB | Viewed 4836 times ]


and CA-132 USS Macon as looked like in the early 1960's say 1960/61 (What I was able to determine from photos):
Attachment:
Baltimore-Macon 1960.png
Baltimore-Macon 1960.png [ 1.02 MiB | Viewed 4836 times ]


CA-122 USS Oregon City as looked like in late/post war in 1945/1946:
Attachment:
Oregon City 1946.png
Oregon City 1946.png [ 1.18 MiB | Viewed 4836 times ]


and CA-124 USS Rochester as looked like in the early 1960's say 1960/61 (What I was able to determine from photos):
Attachment:
Oregon City-Rochester 1960.png
Oregon City-Rochester 1960.png [ 1.03 MiB | Viewed 4836 times ]


I hope they are accurate.
Post Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks I presume the Mark 56 / SPG-35 GFCS are at the platforms just forward of the bridge, behind the conning tower and next to the 4th pair of wing Bofors mounts which are behind the aft wing 5" turrets eg around the aft mast.
Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Tom,

I have the same problem with wide photos like Rick posted, and Pascal's images in the Scratch Build section. However, I don't mind the scrolling because the larger images have much better detail.

My laptop has 15 1/2" diagonal display with only 1366 x 768 pixels.

Phil
Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Rick:

Thank you for as always posting the most accurate information and the best photos. Perhaps the issue is with my display, but you beautiful photos always exceed the size of my screen and I have to scroll to look at the whole photo or read the text.

Thanks for sharing! Best regards: Tom
Post Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
The editor of the WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL quarterly journal (INRO), looked into this question about why USS OREGON CITY was decommissioned so soon, several years ago and came up that there were no defects with her. The USN was limited with how many ships could be in active service due to funding limits. The selection of which cruisers to decommission between 1946 and 1950, was somewhat random and may have been a factor of how up-to-date they were with equipment. Radar and Fire Control Systems were changing rapidly during the late 1940's. The BALTIMORE class in general had more "room" onboard for flagship roles and were less crowded and "won out" over the CLEVELAND and ATLANTA class cruisers. But, an attempt was made to have at least one of each class of the modern cruisers in commission early in the 1950's.

As for GFCS installed on the OREGON CITY class as completed, I'm not sure for all of them. But, it appears they initially had several Mk 57 GFCS and Mk 63 GFGS (Mk 63 used a Mk 51 mod director and had radar installed on the 40-mm mount). Prior to 1950, it looks like four Mk 56 GFCS were installed.

Image
Post Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:25 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Baltimore class (CA) fans  Reply with quote
Question:
What kind of close range directors the Oregon City class cruisers carry while they were still equipped with the 40mm Bofors guns?
Did they carry the mix of the Baltimores eg Mark 51 and 57 or only Mark 57s? I know when they received the 3" RF Mark 22 guns they received their respective Mark 56 / SPG-35 GFCS as well.
Does somebody have drawings of the Mark 57 and maybe mark 51 directors? (Top and side views? )
Post Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:37 am

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