The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:05 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
type everything in between the quote marks: "N0$pam" Note the Zero:
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
tj,

Thanks. Sounds like the plastic is more accurate than the box art.

Phil
Post Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:02 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
The Pitroad kit of MIAMI is reviewed on this site at http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... miami.html.
Responding to Phil's post - noting that I am referring to the original PitRoad offering, which I believe has the same plastic as the Midships Model version:
Rangefinders are provided in the kit for all four turrets, but are separate pieces, so can be fitted as required - the instructions do, however, indicate they should be fitted to all four.
The emplacements for all four pairs of 20mm guns outboard of the inner 6" turrets are separate pieces, and, again, can be fitted as required.
The trash burner uptake is not provided in the kit.
The motor whaleboats and davits are provided in the kit, and the location indicated in the instructions.
The handling rooms under the twin 5" mounts are provided as part of the superstructure deck, and extend nearly to the ship's side. The Booklet of General Plans for MIAMI (http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/089/cl89.pdf) shows that they did not extend to the deck edge, leaving space for a walkway outboard of them, so this is correct - if the builders followed the plans.
There are many other differences between this kit and that of CLEVELAND, and most (but not all - eg trash burner uptake) of the changes in the real ships appear to have been made in the kits.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Nino wrote:
Quick note...
The old Midships 1/700 Miami is listed here for $14.95.

https://freetimehobbies.com/1-700-midsh ... t-cruiser/


This is same kit as the Pit Road/Skywave kit but also marketed by Midship back in the day when they did the 1500 ton DDs. You can find it on Freetime's site with this link so see if you can place an order. I did and it seems to work. If it bounces, I'll get a refund. At the price it is certainly worth it. Possibly Brandon found several in the "warehouse". BTW Midship also did a Cleveland kit also the same as the Pit Road/Skywave kit.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:41 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
I took a look at the link below for the Midships model of the USS Miami CL-89.

The first thing I noticed was the rangefinder extension to turret #1. The later Clevelands didn't have the rangefinders in turret #1. But I have several photos labeled "USS Miami" that show these rangefinders on turret #1. These appear to be early photos right after commissioning, possibly on the shakedown cruise in early 1944. But 1945 photos clearly show the rangefinders to be gone from Turret #1 - a topside weight reduction measure. So this model must be the early 1944 configuration. I don't know when the rangefinders were removed, but it was done on many of the later ships.

NONE of the Clevelands had rangefinders on turret #4. I can't tell from the picture of the box artwork if the model has rangefinders on turret #4.

The model also has two 20mm guns outboard port and starboard of turrets #2 and #3 on the main deck. This was the shakedown cruise configuration, and many ships were initially fitted out with 20mm guns there. But July 1945 photos show twin 40mm guns at these positions. So this is definitely a shakedown cruise version of the ship.

The Miami had the trash burner smoke pipe on the front of the after smoke pipe - the model shows it outboard to port at the rear of the smoke pipe. The earliest Clevelands had it there. Miami did not.

The motor whaleboats are missing just aft midships port and starboard. They were carried on davits. These were on the ship immediately after commissioning in early 1944 and were still there in July 1945.

Mount 54 (port aft) appears to be on a platform with a walkway under it. The dual 5"/38 mounts rode on a handling room "box" that extended to the sides of the ship with no walkways around them.

These are pretty basic mistakes that makes wonder about the accuracy of the model. Maybe they are just box artwork mistakes.

However, the mounts 54 and 55 dual 5"/38 mounts do appear to be positioned correctly for the square bridge ships - about 12 feet farther aft than on the round bridge ships. This means it isn't a minor rework of a model of the early ships with just a square bridge substituted.

Phil
Post Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
I saw that Midships release! Pretty low price given what the Skywave Cleveland went for/goes for now. It said the kit did not include decals, but still...$14.95 is a pretty amazing price for any 1/700 release of a cruiser size subject. New destroyer releases seem to be at least $25...
Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:16 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Who is reissuing the Midship models?
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Quick note...
The old Midships 1/700 Miami is listed here for $14.95.

https://freetimehobbies.com/1-700-midsh ... t-cruiser/
Post Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Rick,
Thanks for posting the blow-up photo of the DENVER. So many more details are now visible--the life rafts you mentioned and the mwb davits.
There is a photo taken the day she returned to Mare Island, showing where she was hit. It also shows that several changes from your photo had been made.
First, there is a platform just below the foremast head that seems to have the SG although something is still at the masthead (can't tell what it is). Second, the 40mm director tub abreast the aft funnel appears to have been removed. Instead the 36" searchlight position on the foremast looks smaller to me as if the director is there now. Photos from the end of her refit show this to be the case. Finally the ship is now in Measure 22 (Navy Blue & Haze Gray) It would be interesting to know when/where these changes were made--some time between April & November '43.
thanks,
Jim Grace
Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Beautiful photo of Denver. I definitely concur the mainmast air search mattress is SA - the rounded corners of the reflector are visible when you blow up the photo. Rick you've given me an idea for my next project!
Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

I was just nit-picking about the ship being anchored. When I look closer I think I see a bit of a wake around the port quarter, and the flat water off the port stern makes me think the ship was moving slowly and turning to port. There are bunch of guys standing around on the bow. I'd bet they were the Special Sea and Anchor Detail, and the ship was maneuvering into position to drop the hook or tie on to an anchor buoy.

****

I suppose the Cleveland blueprints contain a list of rafts and such - there is a list of furniture - but I am sure I have never scanned it. Anyway, as soon as the war started I'm sure they added more rafts, floater nets, life jackets, etc., especially since they eliminated the midships boat farm. So the original blueprints won't be of much help.

The USS Miami CL-89 "Booklet of General Plans" General Information page (page 2) lists 33 rafts and 23 float nets. This is probably a good approximation of what the ships carried during the war since the Miami was built and commissioned during the war. Looking at the deck plans I found these rafts:

2 Frame 28 Main Deck port and stbd sides of turret #1 - one each side *
1 Frame 45 Communications Platform centerline fwd of Mount 51 - one on deck
2 Frame 55 Communications Platform port side of O1 deck house - two stacked
1 Frame 64 Main Deck stbd side on side of deck house
4 Frame 65 Communications Platform port and stbd outboard of deck house O1 level - two stacked each side on framework
2 Frame 74 Communication Platform centerline stbd above potato stowage - two stacked
2 Frame 76 Communications Platform centerline stbd above potato stowage - two stacked
? Frame 78 Communications Platform on deck aft of potato stowage **
8 Frame 97 Communications Platform port and stbd outboard of deck house O1 level - two stacks of two each on framework
1 Frame 101 Main Deck stbd side of deck house
2 Frame 118 Main Deck port and stbd sides of turret #4 - one each side *
4 Frame 129 Main deck port and stbd sides under catapult - two stacked each side
4 Frame 131 Main deck port and stbd sides under catapult - two stacked each side
2 Frame 137 Main deck port side under catapult - two stacked
Total: 35 - two more than listed in the General Information

* Note: The plans show 6 floater net stowage on top of 6"/47 turrets #1 and #4. The plans do not show the top of 6"/47 turrets #2 or #3. However, the outboard profile shows floater nets on the tops of all four turrets. That accounts for 24 floater nets - one more than in the General Information.

** Note: These two life rafts are shown on stbd profile but are not on Communications Platform deck plan.

Phil
Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Phil,

I guess I should have stated that she is in "port". I had two images of USS DENVER I scanned dated in April 1943, the other image of her is a starboard side view showing that she is stationary, that I was looking for rafts. Plus the seaplane in the water confused me. Actually the seaplane could belong to the ship that took the photo.

On the question about rafts on USS DENVER, I wonder if more than two rafts are stowed between the stacks, with at least four being likely, but maybe even more.

The early CLEVELAND class units had a variety of configurations as the class evolved.
Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

Nice photo.

I wonder if the ship was at anchor? The port chain was the longer of the two and this anchor was the preferred one.

The flag is flying from the fore mast, as if the ship was underway. There isn't a flag on the flag staff at the stern or ensign on the bow staff. And the ship appears to be leaving a slight wake at the stern. And I don't see an anchor ball flying on the mast.

Phil
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Here is an image of USS DENVER (CL-58) dated 22 April 1943 at anchor.

Image

I don't know how many rafts USS DENVER had, but I can make out at a stack of two rafts under the portside aircraft catapult and I assume there is two more under the starboard catapult. There is another raft on the bulkhead just forward of the 52 and 53 mounts. Also, I see a stack of two rafts on the centerline where the ship's boats were stowed. There are a lot of places that other rafts could be stowed and not be visible in broadside photos.

As for radars, USS DENVER has a SG radar on the foremast and either a SA or SC-1 (looks like an SA radar to me) radar with a "stovepipe IFF" antenna on the mainmast.

PS; In the late 1942 period, floater nets were deployed all over ships in bundles, not necessarily in baskets, as substitutes for more rafts. Sometimes the floater net bundles were wrapped in canvas that could be easily released when needed.
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 pm
  Post subject:  USS DENVER  Reply with quote
I have three questions about the appearance of the light cruiser DENVER (CL-58) at the Battle of Empress Augusta Bay, Nov '43. Online photos of her from 1943 show only four life rafts (2 each on Turrets I and IV) but all four turrets have life nets on their roofs. Were there other life rifts that don't show in the photos? Her post-battle show the addition of many more. Second, ho photos from this period clearly show her masthead radars. Last, no 26' motor whaleboats are visible even though they were standard issue for all warships. Post-battle photos do show them installed abreast Mt. 56. Any information on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Jim Grace
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:57 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Will do. Thanks Phil. Neil
Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Your halyard rigging and foot ropes look OK. The photos from the Manchester show the signal halyard rigging pretty clearly.

Here is a photo of the flag bag on the OK City CLG-5:

https://www.okieboat.com/Copyright%20im ... 24%20C.jpg

I thought it might have been the WWII version just carried over to the CLG modification, but it appears to be smaller. But you can see the bar in front of it they tied off the halyards to while attaching flags. I don't know if they did this during WWII - something to watch for.

Phil
Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Phil,

Thank you very much for the information. It is extremely helpful. I would have never figured out the foot ropes for example. It makes sense. So does grounding the cables and the basic rigging of the halyards.

I think I will build my rigging like you described, and without "speed cones", but with foot ropes. Also on the main mast, I plan on tying one end of the signal flag halyard to the flag bag and the other end to the pinned rail above/in front of the flag bag. What do you think? Below are photos.

Image
Original Navy model of USS Manchester (in storage in Birmingham Alabama). Note how the signal flag halyards are tied off at the flag bag and the rail forward and above the bag.

Image
On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

Image
On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

Image
My model. Made a upper rail (not permanently attached yet - just wedged in place) for tying off other end of flag halyards.

Image
Revised rigging diagram (foot ropes added, no "speed cones") for my USS Manchester CL-83.
Post Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Neil,

I have never heard the term "speed cone retract." What you show in the New Jersey model photo appears to be a way to lower all of the halyard blocks (but I am not certain). One problem with the signal flag system is that the end of a halyard can "get away" and run through the block at the top, or at least the clip on the end of the line gets caught in the block. When this happens someone has to climb the mast and feed the halyard back through the block. This can be interesting if the ship is pitching and rolling in high winds. Being able to lower all of the blocks would make it easier and faster to re-rig the halyard. I have never seen this in practice.

The blocks normally have a ring attached to a strap around the block. The yardarms have "U" loops welded to the metal tube. The blocks are secured to the yardarms with shackles that hook through the loops on the yardarms, and the shackle bolt passes through the ring on the block. You can see the shackles in the photos of the New Jersey and Cleveland models.

The lines hanging below the Cleveland yardarms (yellow and called "speed cone retracts" in your diagram) are foot ropes. They are used when someone has to climb out on the yardarm to restring halyards, repair cables to the antennas and anemometers, etc. They are the same as the foot ropes on the yards of square rigged sailing ships. Typically they are fastened to the yardarm at the outboard end and again at some point inboard. In between there are additional cables attached to the yardarms that hang down and loop around the foot ropes to support them. You can see the arrangement in your Manchester mast photos.

Metal cable stays have to be grounded - they do not have insulators. You can see the ground cable wrapped around the turnbuckle in the USS Kidd photo. High power radio and radar transmitters emit a strong field and the stays work just like antennas. The induced voltage and current can be very high - enough to kill. We were warned not to grab hold of any metal stay. If the grounding fails due to corrosion - and that does happen - you could get a nasty shock when you touch it and complete the circuit to the grounded deck.

Phil
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:38 pm
  Post subject:  USS Manchester CL-83 Mast Rigging  Reply with quote
Thanks Phil, Rick, Dick and Timmy for your help on the Binnacle / Radar Loop question. By the way, I'm going with a "removable" Binnacle until I find out more... Thanks again!

I have another question. This time about Rigging and Lines for the Main Mast of my CL-83. I am unfamiliar with the details of how the Flags and Pennants are raised and lowered, how the mast is supported and what antennas are connected to mast. Specifically, I believe the signal flags are raised and lowered on a halyard which is supported by a small "roller block" (not sure of the actual name) which is connected to the yardarm - at least that's how it looks from pictures. My questions are:

1. Is the "roller block" connected directly to the yardarm? Or is it connected to another line (called a Speed Cone Retractor?) that spans the most of the length of one side of the yard arm (so that all 4 halyards can be raised/lowered together)? On some ships it looks like the "roller blocks" are connected directly to the yard arm and on others it may be that they are connected to a "Speed Cone Retractor". I have pictures of both below.

2. Is my general layout (Please see my colored Diagram below) of halyards, mast stays and antenna's correct? Do you see any glaring errors?

3. My assumption is that mast stays are connected to the mast at the top with a simple ring and loop system and are connected at the bottom with a turn buckle (See Picture of USS Kidd). Would that apply for CL-83? Also, do the mast stays have in-line insulators like the antennas?

Below is a Colored Diagram I made, as well as closeup pictures of the CL-83, Drawings of Cleveland Class rigging and photos of navy models, photos of the USS Kidd destroyer and current photos of my Manchester model.

Image
Colored Mast Rigging Diagram - CL-83 Proposed

Image
Cleveland Class Cruiser CL-64 Drawing

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 25Oct1946 Closeup

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 25 Oct 1946 Closeup Opposite Side

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 9 March 1948 Closeup

Image
Speed Cone Lanyard System??? - 1/48 Scale Navy Model of the USS New Jersey in the Washington DC Navy Museum

Image
Roller Blocks Connected Directly to Yardarm - 1/96 Scale Navy Model of a Cleveland Class Cruiser in the Washington DC Navy Museum

Image
Mast Rigging - USS Kidd

Image
Mast Stay Turnbuckle mounted to the deck - USS Kidd

Image
Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83

Image
Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83


Thank you again for your help!

Neil
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
That photo was labeled wrong back when it was taken. It is in the19-LCM (BuShips) collection at NARA, with other USS ASTORIA (CL-90) photos.

Normally, the labels (which are taped on many of the negatives) and dates provided on the photos in 19-LCM are accurate. Some dates reflect WHEN the photos were processed, and not when taken. But, normally they are off only a few days. This is one of only two or three serious errors on labels/dates I have come across in 19-LCM. An example of a real confusing error, was one whole set of photos taken of USS MULLANY (DD-528) in January 1945 were dated as being taken in July 1943!!! There were apparently two photographers taking photos that day. One set has the correct date and the other has the wrong date.

Since USS BALTIMORE and USS ASTORIA were in the same yard at the same time, the labels apparently got mixed up on some of the photos.

Image
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group