The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:07 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
What is the name in the logo in the top left? (hint it's something dot com):
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Rick,
Thanks for posting the blow-up photo of the DENVER. So many more details are now visible--the life rafts you mentioned and the mwb davits.
There is a photo taken the day she returned to Mare Island, showing where she was hit. It also shows that several changes from your photo had been made.
First, there is a platform just below the foremast head that seems to have the SG although something is still at the masthead (can't tell what it is). Second, the 40mm director tub abreast the aft funnel appears to have been removed. Instead the 36" searchlight position on the foremast looks smaller to me as if the director is there now. Photos from the end of her refit show this to be the case. Finally the ship is now in Measure 22 (Navy Blue & Haze Gray) It would be interesting to know when/where these changes were made--some time between April & November '43.
thanks,
Jim Grace
Post Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Beautiful photo of Denver. I definitely concur the mainmast air search mattress is SA - the rounded corners of the reflector are visible when you blow up the photo. Rick you've given me an idea for my next project!
Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

I was just nit-picking about the ship being anchored. When I look closer I think I see a bit of a wake around the port quarter, and the flat water off the port stern makes me think the ship was moving slowly and turning to port. There are bunch of guys standing around on the bow. I'd bet they were the Special Sea and Anchor Detail, and the ship was maneuvering into position to drop the hook or tie on to an anchor buoy.

****

I suppose the Cleveland blueprints contain a list of rafts and such - there is a list of furniture - but I am sure I have never scanned it. Anyway, as soon as the war started I'm sure they added more rafts, floater nets, life jackets, etc., especially since they eliminated the midships boat farm. So the original blueprints won't be of much help.

The USS Miami CL-89 "Booklet of General Plans" General Information page (page 2) lists 33 rafts and 23 float nets. This is probably a good approximation of what the ships carried during the war since the Miami was built and commissioned during the war. Looking at the deck plans I found these rafts:

2 Frame 28 Main Deck port and stbd sides of turret #1 - one each side *
1 Frame 45 Communications Platform centerline fwd of Mount 51 - one on deck
2 Frame 55 Communications Platform port side of O1 deck house - two stacked
1 Frame 64 Main Deck stbd side on side of deck house
4 Frame 65 Communications Platform port and stbd outboard of deck house O1 level - two stacked each side on framework
2 Frame 74 Communication Platform centerline stbd above potato stowage - two stacked
2 Frame 76 Communications Platform centerline stbd above potato stowage - two stacked
? Frame 78 Communications Platform on deck aft of potato stowage **
8 Frame 97 Communications Platform port and stbd outboard of deck house O1 level - two stacks of two each on framework
1 Frame 101 Main Deck stbd side of deck house
2 Frame 118 Main Deck port and stbd sides of turret #4 - one each side *
4 Frame 129 Main deck port and stbd sides under catapult - two stacked each side
4 Frame 131 Main deck port and stbd sides under catapult - two stacked each side
2 Frame 137 Main deck port side under catapult - two stacked
Total: 35 - two more than listed in the General Information

* Note: The plans show 6 floater net stowage on top of 6"/47 turrets #1 and #4. The plans do not show the top of 6"/47 turrets #2 or #3. However, the outboard profile shows floater nets on the tops of all four turrets. That accounts for 24 floater nets - one more than in the General Information.

** Note: These two life rafts are shown on stbd profile but are not on Communications Platform deck plan.

Phil
Post Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Phil,

I guess I should have stated that she is in "port". I had two images of USS DENVER I scanned dated in April 1943, the other image of her is a starboard side view showing that she is stationary, that I was looking for rafts. Plus the seaplane in the water confused me. Actually the seaplane could belong to the ship that took the photo.

On the question about rafts on USS DENVER, I wonder if more than two rafts are stowed between the stacks, with at least four being likely, but maybe even more.

The early CLEVELAND class units had a variety of configurations as the class evolved.
Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

Nice photo.

I wonder if the ship was at anchor? The port chain was the longer of the two and this anchor was the preferred one.

The flag is flying from the fore mast, as if the ship was underway. There isn't a flag on the flag staff at the stern or ensign on the bow staff. And the ship appears to be leaving a slight wake at the stern. And I don't see an anchor ball flying on the mast.

Phil
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Here is an image of USS DENVER (CL-58) dated 22 April 1943 at anchor.

Image

I don't know how many rafts USS DENVER had, but I can make out at a stack of two rafts under the portside aircraft catapult and I assume there is two more under the starboard catapult. There is another raft on the bulkhead just forward of the 52 and 53 mounts. Also, I see a stack of two rafts on the centerline where the ship's boats were stowed. There are a lot of places that other rafts could be stowed and not be visible in broadside photos.

As for radars, USS DENVER has a SG radar on the foremast and either a SA or SC-1 (looks like an SA radar to me) radar with a "stovepipe IFF" antenna on the mainmast.

PS; In the late 1942 period, floater nets were deployed all over ships in bundles, not necessarily in baskets, as substitutes for more rafts. Sometimes the floater net bundles were wrapped in canvas that could be easily released when needed.
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:20 pm
  Post subject:  USS DENVER  Reply with quote
I have three questions about the appearance of the light cruiser DENVER (CL-58) at the Battle of Empress Augusta Bay, Nov '43. Online photos of her from 1943 show only four life rafts (2 each on Turrets I and IV) but all four turrets have life nets on their roofs. Were there other life rifts that don't show in the photos? Her post-battle show the addition of many more. Second, ho photos from this period clearly show her masthead radars. Last, no 26' motor whaleboats are visible even though they were standard issue for all warships. Post-battle photos do show them installed abreast Mt. 56. Any information on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Jim Grace
Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:57 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Will do. Thanks Phil. Neil
Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Your halyard rigging and foot ropes look OK. The photos from the Manchester show the signal halyard rigging pretty clearly.

Here is a photo of the flag bag on the OK City CLG-5:

https://www.okieboat.com/Copyright%20im ... 24%20C.jpg

I thought it might have been the WWII version just carried over to the CLG modification, but it appears to be smaller. But you can see the bar in front of it they tied off the halyards to while attaching flags. I don't know if they did this during WWII - something to watch for.

Phil
Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Phil,

Thank you very much for the information. It is extremely helpful. I would have never figured out the foot ropes for example. It makes sense. So does grounding the cables and the basic rigging of the halyards.

I think I will build my rigging like you described, and without "speed cones", but with foot ropes. Also on the main mast, I plan on tying one end of the signal flag halyard to the flag bag and the other end to the pinned rail above/in front of the flag bag. What do you think? Below are photos.

Image
Original Navy model of USS Manchester (in storage in Birmingham Alabama). Note how the signal flag halyards are tied off at the flag bag and the rail forward and above the bag.

Image
On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

Image
On board the USS Manchester in 1949. Photo I obtained from a CL-83 veteran.

Image
My model. Made a upper rail (not permanently attached yet - just wedged in place) for tying off other end of flag halyards.

Image
Revised rigging diagram (foot ropes added, no "speed cones") for my USS Manchester CL-83.
Post Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Neil,

I have never heard the term "speed cone retract." What you show in the New Jersey model photo appears to be a way to lower all of the halyard blocks (but I am not certain). One problem with the signal flag system is that the end of a halyard can "get away" and run through the block at the top, or at least the clip on the end of the line gets caught in the block. When this happens someone has to climb the mast and feed the halyard back through the block. This can be interesting if the ship is pitching and rolling in high winds. Being able to lower all of the blocks would make it easier and faster to re-rig the halyard. I have never seen this in practice.

The blocks normally have a ring attached to a strap around the block. The yardarms have "U" loops welded to the metal tube. The blocks are secured to the yardarms with shackles that hook through the loops on the yardarms, and the shackle bolt passes through the ring on the block. You can see the shackles in the photos of the New Jersey and Cleveland models.

The lines hanging below the Cleveland yardarms (yellow and called "speed cone retracts" in your diagram) are foot ropes. They are used when someone has to climb out on the yardarm to restring halyards, repair cables to the antennas and anemometers, etc. They are the same as the foot ropes on the yards of square rigged sailing ships. Typically they are fastened to the yardarm at the outboard end and again at some point inboard. In between there are additional cables attached to the yardarms that hang down and loop around the foot ropes to support them. You can see the arrangement in your Manchester mast photos.

Metal cable stays have to be grounded - they do not have insulators. You can see the ground cable wrapped around the turnbuckle in the USS Kidd photo. High power radio and radar transmitters emit a strong field and the stays work just like antennas. The induced voltage and current can be very high - enough to kill. We were warned not to grab hold of any metal stay. If the grounding fails due to corrosion - and that does happen - you could get a nasty shock when you touch it and complete the circuit to the grounded deck.

Phil
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:38 pm
  Post subject:  USS Manchester CL-83 Mast Rigging  Reply with quote
Thanks Phil, Rick, Dick and Timmy for your help on the Binnacle / Radar Loop question. By the way, I'm going with a "removable" Binnacle until I find out more... Thanks again!

I have another question. This time about Rigging and Lines for the Main Mast of my CL-83. I am unfamiliar with the details of how the Flags and Pennants are raised and lowered, how the mast is supported and what antennas are connected to mast. Specifically, I believe the signal flags are raised and lowered on a halyard which is supported by a small "roller block" (not sure of the actual name) which is connected to the yardarm - at least that's how it looks from pictures. My questions are:

1. Is the "roller block" connected directly to the yardarm? Or is it connected to another line (called a Speed Cone Retractor?) that spans the most of the length of one side of the yard arm (so that all 4 halyards can be raised/lowered together)? On some ships it looks like the "roller blocks" are connected directly to the yard arm and on others it may be that they are connected to a "Speed Cone Retractor". I have pictures of both below.

2. Is my general layout (Please see my colored Diagram below) of halyards, mast stays and antenna's correct? Do you see any glaring errors?

3. My assumption is that mast stays are connected to the mast at the top with a simple ring and loop system and are connected at the bottom with a turn buckle (See Picture of USS Kidd). Would that apply for CL-83? Also, do the mast stays have in-line insulators like the antennas?

Below is a Colored Diagram I made, as well as closeup pictures of the CL-83, Drawings of Cleveland Class rigging and photos of navy models, photos of the USS Kidd destroyer and current photos of my Manchester model.

Image
Colored Mast Rigging Diagram - CL-83 Proposed

Image
Cleveland Class Cruiser CL-64 Drawing

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 25Oct1946 Closeup

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 25 Oct 1946 Closeup Opposite Side

Image
USS Manchester CL-83 9 March 1948 Closeup

Image
Speed Cone Lanyard System??? - 1/48 Scale Navy Model of the USS New Jersey in the Washington DC Navy Museum

Image
Roller Blocks Connected Directly to Yardarm - 1/96 Scale Navy Model of a Cleveland Class Cruiser in the Washington DC Navy Museum

Image
Mast Rigging - USS Kidd

Image
Mast Stay Turnbuckle mounted to the deck - USS Kidd

Image
Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83

Image
Current picture of my 1/96 Scale USS Manchester CL-83


Thank you again for your help!

Neil
Post Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
That photo was labeled wrong back when it was taken. It is in the19-LCM (BuShips) collection at NARA, with other USS ASTORIA (CL-90) photos.

Normally, the labels (which are taped on many of the negatives) and dates provided on the photos in 19-LCM are accurate. Some dates reflect WHEN the photos were processed, and not when taken. But, normally they are off only a few days. This is one of only two or three serious errors on labels/dates I have come across in 19-LCM. An example of a real confusing error, was one whole set of photos taken of USS MULLANY (DD-528) in January 1945 were dated as being taken in July 1943!!! There were apparently two photographers taking photos that day. One set has the correct date and the other has the wrong date.

Since USS BALTIMORE and USS ASTORIA were in the same yard at the same time, the labels apparently got mixed up on some of the photos.

Image
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Dick,

Good eye for details. The photo is mislabeled! The high quad 40 mount between the smoke pipes is a give away, as well as the tops of the smoke pipes - they aren't exactly like the Cleveland smoke pipes.

Thanks for catching that!

I edited the post and removed that picture. I got it from a fellow who had scanned a bunch of photos at the National Archives. I wonder if he screwed up or if the picture is in the wrong box at the Archives?

Phil
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Just a comment on that last set of pictures. The first one, the one labeled "Astoria CL-90 1.jpg", is most decidedly not Astoria, but in fact is Baltimore, CA-68. I checked the original photo from which this was cropped, and it is mislabeled CL-90. But the single turret aft and the twin cranes at the stern say otherwise.
Post Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
I agree that being manned makes me think it is a binnacle or pelorus. It is in a common position midships for the binnacle. A binnacle would carry the "navigator's balls" that appear to be visible in your photo.

A single loop RDF antenna would not be manned. It would be rotated by motor and controlled from the operator's station.

The later two-loop RDF antenna had two antennas mounted at right angles to each other. The relative field strengths from the different loops gave an indication of direction.

Phil
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:01 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Maybe a pelorus with extra sights attached for different targets?

That it's manned in photos would make sense if it was being used to keep track of the vessel from which the photo was taken.
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Neil,

From the picture you posted I can't tell what it is. I do see the ball you mention, and I don't see the normal set of circular RDF antennas.

In the plans the binnacle (compass) is on the deck below - the same level as the flag bags. Above it is supposed to be the radio direction finder.

However, the plans were drawn up before the war or earlier during the war, and by the time the war ended things might been moved around. The bell is supposed to be at the level with the flag bags, but it obviously wasn't.

The binnacle was sensitive to objects around it - there was a magnetic "keep out" circle around it where other equipment was not to be located, especially magnetic objects or devices that could generate a magnetic field. Placing the RDF almost directly above the binnacle might have caused problems, as well as equipment around the flag bags and on the deck below. So maybe the RDF was moved elsewhere and the binnacle was moved to it's position.

Many of the late war Clevelands have a RDF antenna mounted on a support attached to the aft side of the forward smoke pipe. After the war these were removed on some ships.

Whatever the thing is in your photo, it is manned in virtually every picture I have of Clevelands underway.

I have attached some files that show the circular radio direction finder antenna at the location forward of the fore ward smoke pipe, and some showing the RDF antenna on the aft side of the forward smoke pipe.


Attachments:
Springfield CL-66.jpg
Springfield CL-66.jpg [ 122.84 KiB | Viewed 1634 times ]
Astoria CL-90 2.jpg
Astoria CL-90 2.jpg [ 136.29 KiB | Viewed 1634 times ]
USS Astoria CL-90 Oct 1944 NH 98421.jpg
USS Astoria CL-90 Oct 1944 NH 98421.jpg [ 110.99 KiB | Viewed 1634 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:02 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Hi Phil, Thanks for the note. Yes my Floating Drydock (CL-89 plans) say "RDF" at this position. Not knowing what RDF stood for I researched/guessed Radio Direction Finder (navigation by triangulating radio signals), but I am not familiar with that device. Even during ww2, wasn't radio direction normally found by the use of antenna's? Also, I saw what appear to be compensating balls on either side - indicating it was more likely a magnetic compass.

Would you happen to have a picture of this device?

Thanks again.

Neil
Post Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Cleveland class (CL) fans  Reply with quote
Plans for the USS Miami CL-89 show a "Radio D. F. Loop" at this position.

USS Cleveland CL-55 plans also show a "Radio Dir Finder" at this position, on the deck above the compass.

Phil
Post Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:01 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group