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Topic review - Calling all Sims class DD fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Dick is right that USS RUSSELL (DD-414) and MORRIS (DD-417) "started" their mod work to the Anti-Kamikaze configuration (USS RUSSELL during a major overhaul at Seattle and MORRIS along with battle damage repairs at HPNY), but neither unit completed the upgrade when work was cancelled at war's end and they were decommissioned and stricken in late 1945. Eventually both were sold for scrap. Four of the five remaining SIMS class units were used in the Bikini A-bomb tests.

I was only referring to USS MUSTIN as being the solo unit of the SIMS class that actually completed the Anti-Kamikaze mod.
Post Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
Yes the USS MUSTIN August 1945, Anti-Kamikaze configuration was the last one for the SIMS class. As it was, MUSTIN was the only member of her class to actually receive the mod. The SIMS class survivors were part of the "now obsolete" pre-WWII built destroyers declared surplus at the end of WWII and were disposed of. So no other surviving units (five units out of the class of 12, were lost during WWII) were given any upgrades post-WWII when the sisters to MUSTIN returned to stateside.

Friedman indicates that Morris and Russel also got the mod, though it is probable that they had only been started but were still incomplete when the war ended. Incomplete mods of the "surplus" older ships at war's end usually resulted in the ship being written off as a "constructive total loss", a description that is mostly misunderstood. Many interpret it to mean "damaged beyond any hope of repair". The actual meaning is that the cost of the repair/reconfiguration exceeded the value of the ship to the navy. Morris suffered major kamikaze damage late in the war. Considering that some ships were repaired after losing their entire bow, Morris's damage was far less, so "unrepairable" is unlikely. Had the war continued, she would have been repaired (destroyers would still have been needed in large numbers), and being in the yard that late in the war, would have certainly received the kamikaze upgrade.
Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Yes the USS MUSTIN August 1945, Anti-Kamikaze configuration was the last one for the SIMS class. As it was, MUSTIN was the only member of her class to actually receive the mod. The SIMS class survivors were part of the "now obsolete" pre-WWII built destroyers declared surplus at the end of WWII and were disposed of. So no other surviving units (five units out of the class of 12, were lost during WWII) were given any upgrades post-WWII when the sisters to MUSTIN returned to stateside.

Yes USS WAINWRIGHT with three single 40-mm guns was a "one-only" conversion. When the German Air Force made a determined effort in early 1944 to attack the allied fleets off Italy and around the MED, the "temporary" addition of more AA guns was authorized on a DesDiv basis for such units assigned to operate in the MED. Destroyer Divisions 13, 14, 21, and 25 were so authorized as were many DE's. All of these were early BENSON-GLEAVES units except for USS WAINWRIGHT, the DesDiv Flag for DesDiv 25, making her the solo SIMS class unit authorized with this upgrade.

On the BENSON-GLEAVES class units, a temporary platform for four additional 20-mm guns replaced the aft torpedo tubes bank. An additional and separate mod authorized a pair of singe 40-mm mounts added on the main deck aft of the temporary platform and ahead of the two twin 40-mm mounts. In total at least 15 BENSON-GLEAVES class units received the platform for four 20-mm guns and at least 13 units also had the two single 40-mm mounts. The augmented armament was installed at either NYNY or by USS VULCAN (AR-5) at Oran. Few photos exist of these units so armed and verification of some units listed in Armament Summaries can't be verified with a photo(s), particularly for the difficult to see single 40-mm mounts, only via textual records.

The best set of images I have come across, are of USS NIBLACK (DD-424). A series of 14 March 1944, aerial views shows her after the temporary platform for four 20-mm guns was added. See first image. Then another series of photos taken on 9 April 1944, shows that the two single 40-mm mounts have been added, requiring the relocation of two K-Guns further aft. See second image and third close-crop image from the same photo.

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick, thank you for the overheads of Mustin and Wainwright. All is now clearly defined.

Might this AUG1945 Mustin configuration - Mk 25 radar antenna, four twin 40s, and no torpedo tubes - complete the Sims class evolution?

Is Wainwright's arrangement of a pair of twin 40s on the after deckhouse and three single 40s replacing a torpedo tube mount amidships one-of-a-kind?
Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Sean, don't forget Buckley class DEs with single 40mm amidships, including Fogg, Foss, Fowler, and Solar.
Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Steve wrote:
Interesting with single 40mm mounts in the 3rd pic both P/S,


And center. They're also there in the second picture. I never knew the USN used 40MM singles on ships. Between that and the great looking dazzle scheme I'm starting to want to build this one...

- Sean F.
Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:19 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Interesting with single 40mm mounts in the 3rd pic both P/S,
Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Fred only built models of the SIMS class units involved with the Battle of Santa Cruz, October 1942.

As for configurations of USS MUSTIN (DD-413) with four twin 40-mm mounts. See attached.

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USS WAINWRIGHT (DD-419) had two twin 40-mm mounts and THREE single 40-mm, not five single 40-mm mounts, installed on a platform where her aft torpedo tubes mount was located from July 1944 to late in 1944 for operations in the MED. In late 1944, the temporary single 40-mm mounts were removed and her aft torpedo tubes were returned. When initially installed with the three single 40-mm mounts, WAINWRIGHT was painted in Ms 22 camouflage. Later she was painted in dazzle. See attached.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:51 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Hi, Fred. I'm going waaay back to your 06OCT2017 post for this one. Did you include late war Mustin DD413 (with four twin 40mm) or Wainwright DD419 (with five single or twin 40mm) among your six builds? I can't accurately determine Bofors placement on those two ships.
Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: u.s.s. hammann details  Reply with quote
First this posting should (will) be moved to be under the SIMS class CASF thread. If you have not looked in the SIMS class CASF thread, I recommend that you do so.

Getting good views in the area behind the bridge and before the stack, of not only this destroyer, but pretty much ALL destroyers, is really hard to find.

I have looked at all the images I have, both drawings and photos, and I can't get a standard vent configuration for all the SIMS class units throughout their careers. But, in the attached fitting out view of USS HAMMANN, it appears to me that the vent is one of the types that arc over so that the exhaust points to the rear with a blower on the side.

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I don't have a good image looking down on the aft deckhouse for USS HAMMANN, but here is an image of a sister (USS MORRIS) with the same configuration before 20-mm guns replaced the 50-cal MGs. The vents either exit to the aft or continue to arc over so that the exhaust faces down.

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:29 pm
  Post subject:  u.s.s. hammann details  Reply with quote
I'm building the Hammann as she appeared at Midway and I could use help (Photos / sketches? of two areas 1. the vent on the deckhouse above the laundry dryer rooms next to the main mast. 2. The vents etc. on top of the rear deckhouse adjacent to the rear mast. By the way the Benson Gleaves CASF thread on page 2 or 3 has great photos of the rear deckhouse 36" searchlight platform. I don't like the one in the dragon kit and I spent a long evening ruining 1/700 railings trying to replicate the "sloped" railing around this platform. Then I saw that the TMW sims Class PE set has these railings printed in such a way that you can fold them to show this correctly. Am I really going to buy that set just to get those rails? probably.....
Post Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
I finally located a set of what were missing prints at NARA of SIMS class destroyers at Charleston Navy Yard taken on 5 January 1942 when the units were upgraded with 20-mm guns prior to going to the Pacific. These prints were missing in the BuShips (LCM-19) collection, but the negatives existed and I was able to scan them. Some of these images have been available as small images from other collections, with some available at NHHC as large file downloads. But not all of these are available.

A couple of these negatives are of a pretty low contrast (the NHHC image of the same HAMMANN image below, has the contrast adjusted to be darker than the one I have posted here)

USS ANDERSON (DD-411)
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USS HAMMANN (DD-412)
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USS MUSTIN (DD-413)
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USS MORRIS (DD-417)
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:28 am
  Post subject:  ISW 1/350 Russell kit spare parts available for free  Reply with quote
I just completed my 6th and final ISW 1/350 Sims class destroyer.

As a result of the generous part replacement policy of ISW, I have a lot of parts sent in addition to ones I asked for. This includes 3 hulls that I used to test paints but are probably still usable if overpainted with primer. I can tell you how to straighten them if you wish to correct the approx. 10 degree L turn in the bow forward of the bridge.

The spare parts include both resin and PE. Not all of them are Sims class not sure what kit the others came from. Some but not all of them mainly PE are already painted Ocean Grey. I have enough spare parts to probably build a complete Sims class DD.

I am not selling these parts. If you need anything that came from this kit or the other DDs offered by this manufacturer feel free to rattle my cage via email direct to me. If the cost to send anything to you is over a few bucks I would appreciate a donation to my gin and tonic fund in the amount of the postage and padded envelope. This is not mandatory and I will absorb the cost if necessary to get rid of the spare parts and assist fellow model builders.

To cover all bases I will be placing this message on the main forum, the Sims CASF site, and the Trading Post.

If I do not hear from anyone by 12/1/17 most of these items are going into the trash.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Ms 12R(Mod) started out defined using 5-S, 5-O, and 5-H, but 5-S was quickly changed to 5-N.
Post Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Very frustrating indeed!

So I have another question about the actual colors of Measure 12 (modified); ShipCamouflage.com lists the colors as Sea Blue (5-S) and Ocean Grey (5-O), but I thought Ms12 mod used Navy Blue (5-N) in place of 5-S. Any thoughts?
Post Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
And you can't look at her DesRon 2 sisters for a hint of SIMS' pattern. None of the nine units had the same pattern.
Post Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks for confirming Rick! At least this way I know there's likely no good images easily available. Perhaps one day. I have the photos of SIMS next to RUSSELL, but you can only see a few parts of the ship - I'll just have to infer the pattern based on other examples.

Cheers
Post Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Sorry, I missed this post somehow. It has been a busy week and next week will be even worse.

Your assumption is about right, there just wasn't much opportunity for her to get in front of a camera. The only photos I have seen of USS SIMS painted in Ms 12R(mod) and scanned, are the ones taken alongside USS RUSSELL at Norfolk on 16 December 1941. And in those images, RUSSELL is the destroyer you can make out much camo detail. I have seen an image of SIMS sinking with USS NEOSHO at Coral Sea taken by an attacking IJN aircraft, but I can't even tell that it is a destroyer. It is also possible that she is unidentified in the background of photos of USS YORKTOWN's TF ops in early 1942. But photos of YORKTOWN during that period are rare as well.

I have gone through just about all the photo collections at NARA that I can think of that have original prints from WWII. There is still a possibility that there is (are) negatives without prints in their collection, but that would require a lot of effort like looking for that needle in the haystack.
Post Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Rick's photos as always are second to none...

Does anyone know of any views of SIMS (DD-409)'s camouflage in 1942? I've found a few photos on the NHHC website of SIMS and RUSSELL (DD-414) at Norfolk on December 16th, 1941, in Measure 12 (modified) - but these don't give much of an idea of SIMS' camouflage. I can't find any other photos of the ship in camouflage, only tons of pre-war photos.

There are some somewhat random model kit lineart images floating around the internet but I don't trust those at all. I guess the ship did not live long enough to have many photos taken of its pattern. :(
Post Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
On my last trip to NARA a couple of weeks ago, I came across some photos in textual records that I never expected to find. In the textual records for USS BUCK (DD-420) I found EIGHT photos of USS MORRIS (DD-417) and TWO of USS BUCK (DD-420) taken in August-September 1941 at Boston Navy Yard while these two destroyers were getting the King Board Mods done. The King Board Mods were accomplished in at least two different configurations on the SIMS class when they cutdown the searchlight tower, removed the 53 mount, installed eight 50-cal MGs, etc. The other mod version retained the small searchlight tower deckhouse with the searchlight relocated atop it. I had never seen ANY onboard views of the SIMS class destroyers getting the initial King Board Mod configuration with eight 50-cal MGs. Out of these twelve photos, I had only seen one before, a profile view of USS MORRIS in stream show this configuration from a moderate distance dated 3 September 1941. Finding ANY in yard photos at Boston Navy Yard is very rare.

These photos have a lot of interesting details for this mod that in many cases carryover to when the MGs were replaced with 20-mm guns in December 1941 and show that these two were being painted in Ms 12 original. No idea if 5-S or 5-N paint was used. Note in the first image, dated 30 August 1941, that MORRIS has her hull number painted below her bridge on the hull. A WWI practice that was briefly used in mid-1941. In the in-stream view dated 3 September 1941, her hull number has been applied in the conventional place on the bow. In the photos dated 30 August 1941, MORRIS is in Drydock #2 at Old Charlestown Navy Yard (Boston Navy Yard). This is the same drydock that USS CASSIN YOUNG was docked for repairs and that USF CONSTITUTION gets docked in for repair work. The building in the background of the four or so photos, is the current building of the USF CONSTITUTION Museum.

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:32 am

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