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Topic review - Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Well they were under orders after Pearl to paint in 5-N with no ambiguity after 12/16/41 that was one of the first orders issued..... (I'm sure Adm. King was a huge influence there) They no longer had time to ponder the issue...

Given the pics your offering up I probably figured wrong on the color and yes it was easy to convert Sea to Navy just add 5 more pints of tinting paste to mixed 5-S.....

I know there was an issue of ships coming from the Atlantic fleet to the Pacific Fleet and being in Sea Blue, especially if they were new construction.... but that was quickly resolved....

Thank you my friend for the answers, now I know....

5-N Navy blue it is..... It would have to be for the Hornet as well she was built in Prewar Standard Grey and was put into Ms. 12m on her second to last availability just prior to shipping out to the pacific. That means she had to be Navy Blue base color as well...

Thanks again....
Post Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
By March 1942, all destroyers in the NORTH Atlantic were using 5-N and not 5-S. It was an easy matter to convert a "pre-mixed" batch of 5-S into 5-N by adding tint. How then someone will come up with an exception .... As for USS VINCENNES and NASHVILLE, it would be dependent on WHEN they were first painted in Ms 12R(mod) and if their CO liked it or rather saw no need to bother repainting. From the images of VINCENNES and NASHVILLE I have scanned, they look to be painted using 5-N while in the Pacific. 5-S tased out of use pretty fast.

The South Atlantic (and maybe Canal Zone) destroyers were a different matter. USS WINSLOW was "reportedly" painted in solid 5-S in December 1941 and after seeing Mountbatten Pink, painted into that!!!!

In the images of USS VINCENNES below, note that the darkest hull side color is a close match to the deck color.

Image

Image

Image
Post Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Ok Rick, I can buy that.....

Some ships from Norfolk were painted in Ms. 2 Sea Blue as Adm. King was issuing his directive to substitute Navy Blue as supplies and availability allowed..... at the same time the BOS was issuing orders for painting that specified Sea Blue..... Which included Ms 12 Mod.... A month or two afterwards the BOS issued a clarification letter of it's orders that Adm King preferred Ms. 12 in Navy Blue and Admiral Kimmel preferred Ms. 11 in Sea Blue.....

There was a LOT of confusion going on back then, Atlantic Fleet was on a wartime footing and Pacific Fleet was not, Orders were communicated on the eastern seaboard within days and on the west coast in weeks, (sometimes months) After the attack on Pearl, and Adm. Stark was moved out to be Roosevelt's naval aide and Admiral King took over as Cominch, (he held both Cominch and Cinclant posts during the war) and he sent Nimitz out west to be Cincpac, things improved quite a bit.... He kinda cut through all the red tape.....

This is why within a week of BOS's orders on paint Admiral King had his preferences into BOS within two days and with Kimmel it was almost two months and then it still took another three weeks for BOS to issue it's revised orders...

I've always understood that the Hornet, Vincennes and Nashville were in Ms. 12m Sea Blue, Norfolk type pattern, (I call it tiger stripe pattern) and one thing that was an issue is they didn't repaint large capital ships that often as it took a while where a destroyer could be repainted in a day. (my nickname for the BosNY pattern is smoke on the water) and I know two of the destroyers were repainted just before they left in march.... (1 or 2 days in fact)

Well given the issues and the orders in hand, I'll shift over to Navy Blue rather than Sea Blue for TF-18, although I'm still not quite convinced/sure..... I haven't studied the paint schemes of the atlantic fleet as much as I have the pacific I suppose....

Now I have two bottles of Late 42 5-N Navy Blue coming from True North..... I would rather have them look the same cause that is how they appear in photos.... Now I still have to find the GMM PE for this kit, I wish Loren Perry had an online shopping cart....

Anyway thanks for all the help, it might be a while yet but when I get everything together and started I will post a log showing progress...

EG
Post Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
The darkest color on the Ms 12R(mod) patterns on ALL the early and repeat BENSON-GLEAVES class units would have been 5-N. The Atlantic fleet replaced the 5-S with 5-N before they started applying the "splotchy" pattern Ms 12R(mod) .... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... CL-41.html .... in early November 1941. The first "Ms 12R(mod) splotchy camo" painted destroyers began appearing in late November into December 1941, with the "jigsaw" pattern at BosNY. This pattern was NOT acceptable (to Adm King?) and was replaced by "most yards" (but not all), USN and private builders, with patterns with larger "splotches". Some of the early BENSON-GLEAVES class units in DesRon 7 carried the jigsaw pattern into as late as May 1942. There appears to have been a different style of Ms 12R(mod) applied by many yards, although the BosNY style does seem to be the most common prior to the switch to Ms 22.
Post Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
That's another wonderful pic Rick....

Like I said, the whole thread is a lot to digest, I probably read your previous, but it got buried in the rest of the info assimilated... I should probably read it again....

So it's possible that the Gwin and Meredith never received the GCS radar before they were lost.. not really important though if they had later, I'm building Gwin to April '42 so she didn't have it.... Two other things about that pic, it clearly shows the starboard side camo pattern even on the superstructure, and at the stern it shows that the stern was a horizontal wraparound like the Kearney's, (5-O at the deck line, 5-S or N in the middle and 5-O at the waterline rather than the upper/lower split on the Grayson's stern) That finalizes the approach to simulating her port quarter paint scheme......

The Gwin's and Kearney's paint schemes were almost identical....

But it does raise one more question.... the hardest one of all.... 5-S or 5-N? I know the scheme was originally laid down in 5-S, but was it 5-S when they sailed with TF-18? I know the Hornet was as was the Cruisers Nashville and Vincennes and the oiler Cimarron, were the Destroyers still in 5-S?

I know two of them were repainted just before they left Norfolk.....

So yes I'm using the Livermore which is already in my stash, (looks to be a beautiful kit) the Infini parts are on the way, the Kracken parts are on order and paid for (but I haven't received any acknowledgement of it yet) and I still have to get the GMM photoetch set on the way....

So I've moved this one to "on the ways" status in my schedule.... only thing left is to decide the blue color, 5-S or 5-N, I have plenty of 5-S from True North Paints but would need to order some 5-N if that is what she was in.... I could just go with the 5-S in hand so at least they all look the same but I would rather them be accurate...

And Rick, I cannot tell you how much your help has meant to figuring this out.... I would still be working on the gun configuration without your help....

Thank you..

EG
Post Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
In one of my earlier posts, I listed that USS GWIN and USS MEREDITH both didn't have the FD (Mk 4) radar installed as of April 1942. In the aerial PHNY July 1942 photo I posted, you can see that USS MONSSEN has a FD radar and USS GWIN does not.

Here is another image of USS GWIN (DD-433) I forgot about that I had. I found this one in 19-N negatives that there wasn't a print of the photo in the 19-LCM files, showing the location of her battle damage. So I scanned the 8x10 B&W negative. I was pleased to find this image since it has been a question mark whether she had been painted in MS 21 prior to the November 1942 battle.

It is NOT of the portside, but does show her Ms 12R(mod) pattern in December 1942, prior to it being painted over with Ms 21 after Battle Damage Repairs. Note that she doesn't show a Mk 4 antenna in this photo either, not even the brackets can be seen. Many times when a unit was going back stateside for major repairs, "useful" equipment that could be installed on other units remaining in the forward are, was stripped off. This practice carried on through out the war. (One of the reasons that USN Yards did "Arrival Surveys" to find what was missing.) But, it doesn't seem so in this December 1942 photo.

Image
Post Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Ok, this is going to be a dumb question, well there is no real "Dumb" question but I'm confused and need some clarification......

This image show Gwinn without her Mk4 radar on top of her Mk37 gun director....

Attachment:
43314 Crop Gwin portside.jpg
43314 Crop Gwin portside.jpg [ 110.37 KiB | Viewed 512 times ]


Now I've seen many many shots of destroyers with this radar, so many in fact, it's ubiquitous of the type....
And yes I know that censors were scrubbing out radars on photos meant for wide distribution. (usually the mast top search radars)

Except the clip I got shows no sign of such scrubbing.....

So I start checking....

USS Meredith.....

Attachment:
zDD434x25_23Jun42.lr.jpg
zDD434x25_23Jun42.lr.jpg [ 215.23 KiB | Viewed 512 times ]


Also doesn't have it and the pic hasn't been censored... Doesn't even have the mounting bracket for it yet the crew poking out the top hatches of the gun director are plain.... (her SC radar is clear and in plain sight as well)

And the base pic of USS Gwin from April 12th, during the raid shows the same....

Attachment:
zDD433x11-18Apr42lr_zpsdb4cccaa.jpg
zDD433x11-18Apr42lr_zpsdb4cccaa.jpg [ 47.32 KiB | Viewed 512 times ]


No Mk.4 Radar on top of her Mk.37 gun director while her mast top SC radar is in plain sight.....

So both ships didn't have the Mk.4 installed while on the mission?

Interesting... I can't see the censors taking out the Mk.4 without taking out the SC.....

Opinions from the experts please?
Post Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:19 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
THANK YOU!

Those two bottom pics of the Greyson and Kearny are wonderful very clear and very close to what the Gwin wore...

This is an image of the Gwin that I cropped out of a pic of her coming up on the starboard quarter of the Hornet during the raid...... (shows most of her port side but at a very steep angle)

Attachment:
43314 Crop Gwin portside.jpg
43314 Crop Gwin portside.jpg [ 110.37 KiB | Viewed 583 times ]


That's the best image of her port side I can find, you can clearly pick out the pattern as far back as the propellor guards....

I also have an image of the Kearney DD-432 showing the stern port quarter.... (shows how they wrapped the paint around the stern)

Attachment:
43236.jpg
43236.jpg [ 68.05 KiB | Viewed 583 times ]


And the Greyson DD-435 port stern quarter.....

Attachment:
43504.jpg
43504.jpg [ 76.57 KiB | Viewed 583 times ]


That adds to the info needed to recreate it as much as possible.....

Thank you very much, I think both the Kearney's and Greyson's scheme is very close to the Gwin's scheme, not exact but very very close.... Except for the stern wrap....

EG
Post Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
The problem with many of the Ms 12R(mod) camo units is finding views of both sides of the ship (and for that matter bow and stern views). I don't know of any "good" portside views of USS GWIN (DD-433), the only images I have is this aerial view taken at PHNY in July 1942 and an aerial view taken at sea in July 1942 of three of the sisters operating together (which are which isn't clear from this distant shot), after they were updated with the nine 20-mm mod. The camo patterns for any of them shouldn't have changed, in any major way.

Image

Image

The only things I would suggest is to "wing" it. Normally, I suggest doing a mirror image on the opposite side when there are NO images available to guide a person. Maybe playing with the posted image of the two at anchor above can pull out more of the pattern. I call this "style" of Ms 12R(mod) patterns that were common on destroyers painted at BosNY after the "jigsaw pattern" period applied in December 1941, "long wave". That IS NOT an official name for this pattern, but the pattern has the long dark pattern, normally sweeping up towards the deck. The photo of the three sisters, show that the patterns are not exactly the same, but basically follow the same "style". I figured that each yard had an artist hired as a yard worker whose only skill was marking out these patterns and this was the one he liked. :big_grin: Another "trick" is to look at other destroyers painted at the same location, at about the same timeframe.

An example; here are two images (second image has her radars censored) of USS GRAYSON (DD-435) after her nine 20-mm mod at MINY and an image of USS KEARNY (DD-432) ay BosNY after her repairs and upgrading. You can see that the patterns aren't exactingly the same, but that they are of the same "style" and pretty close to being the same.

Image

Image

Image

I don't have image 80-G-374882, but if it is of USS GWIN (DD-433) and the place and date are right, she had painted out of Ms 12R(mod) several months (February 1943) before then to Ms 21.
Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:38 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Rick for the link, I got the conversion on order.... I've also got the Infini .50's and Depthcharge sets on order from Sprue Brothers as well....

Probably going to pick up infini's WWI US radar sets as well, which are very nice and give me sets for the other ships in the TF....

Now I grabbed the beautiful starboard side shot of Gwin in her Ms 12 mod paint, I've been looking, and can't find a similar shot of her port side paint, I do have the shots of her off the Hornet stern quarter during the raid and I can discern the scheme for the port forward quarter, it's quite a bit different than the starboard side..... do you know of any images of her port stern quarter? I have the abilities to draw up her approximate port scheme in Gimp if I can get a shot discerning the pattern...

The scheme holds a lot of similarities to her sisters being they all came from the same yard and use the same basic pattern, but Gwin's has enough variations to be quite distinct and definitely not something I can copy over starboard to port, the two sides were very different.... (and there is enough photo evidence to show that difference plainly)

I know, I'm probably asking the impossible, but if there is a chance that a stern port quarter shot is available, you are probably the person who would know....

Now Hyperwar says this....

Quote:
Photo #: 80-G-374882
USS Gwin (DD-415) off Rendova, Solomon Islands, during landings there on 30 June 1943. Taken by a photographer from the Third Amphibious Force
View is taken from off the ship's port side, somewhat toward the bow and moderately distant (ship is about 30% of the image width).


Of course DD-415 is the USS O'Brian a Sims class destroyer that was lost to torpedo damage while being towed home and the date is obviously wrong for the Gwin....

It's probably won't be any help....

Thanks for the help you have given it is more than I could hope for....

EG
Post Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:02 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Yes that short one week period at San Diego is the "most" likely period for replacing 50-cal MG's with 20-mm guns on DesDiv 22 units. However, some units could have been modified while still in the Atlantic. A few other units of the early BENSON-GLEAVES classes replaced 50-cal MG's with 20-mm guns during March 1942 (I have a listing of 13 BENSON-GLEAVES receiving 20-mm guns in March 1942 at BosNY, but no reports about NorNY where these four destroyers were at prior to departing for the Pacific on 4 March 1942). I found no records indicting that the DesDiv 22 units DID received 20-mm guns on the East Coast. However, USS VINCENNES and USS NASHVILLE had 20-mm guns installed in February 1942 at BosNY. San Diego NOB was poor about submitting reports on work they did, early in 1942. Also, possibility is that three out of the four got a few 20-mm guns as noted in April 1942 photos and then got a couple more prior to Midway at PHNY. USS GWIN for sure didn't have any 20-mm guns onboard during the Doolittle Raid.

I assume you are building 1/350 scale DML kits? The 1942 LIVERMORE kit is the best starting option, but almost any GLEAVES class kit will have the basic parts. But, you will need to use a 3-D printed "USS KEARNY October 1941" conversion set from Kraken Hobbies
... https://krakenhobbies.com/shop/ols/prod ... ersion-set ...
for GLEAVES class units that back-date the kit to the twelve 50-cal MG configuration. Or scratch-build the aft deckhouse and add "tubs" atop the pilothouse. Also, you will need after market 50-cal MGs, since the DML 1942 kits don't provide them. Replacing, the required number of 50-cal MG's with 20-mm guns and having the actual radar configurations for each units is needed.

In April 1942, the radar suites were;

DD-433 GWIN ... a SC radar, installed in January 1942, at BosNY
DD-434 MEREDITH ... a SC (or SC-1) radar installed in February 1942, at BosNY
DD-435 GRAYSON ... a SC (or SC-1) and FD (Mk 4) radars installed in February 1942, at BosNY
DD-436 MONSSEN ... a SC and FD (Mk4) radars, installed in January and February 1942, at BosNY

Something of note, both USS MEREDITH and USS GRAYSON had a particularly noticeable "heavy" waveguide going up to the SC (or SC-1) radar. See attached image.

Image
Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
The DesDiv 22 units are an interesting group to study. Their armament configuration at times is pretty fuzzy. I have searched the individual units BuShips Files (with little success) and gone through Weekly Yard Reports at PHNY, plus Armament Summary Updates looking for answers, with varied success.

On 11 May 1942, DesDiv 22 was allowed a special configuration authorization of NINE 20-mm guns. The four units were modified as such in June-July and August 1942.

DD-433 GWIN ... at PHNY 26 June - 2 July 1942
DD-434 MEREDITH ... at PHNY 6-15 August 1942
DD-435 GRAYSON ... at MINY May - 9 June 1942
DD-436 MONSSEN ... at PHNY 26 June - 2 July 1942

Prior to this mod from when they left the Atlantic Fleet with USS HORNET to post-Battle of Midway, is quite fuzzy.

The Armament Summary issued on 15 June 1942 (there is a time lag so the data was collected at some point before that), and updated in the 2 July 1942, Weekly Update as;

On 15 June 1942, no 20-mm guns were listed and the following numbers of 50-cal MG's were noted
DD-433 GWIN ... six MG's
DD-434 MEREDITH ... eight MG's
DD-435 GRAYSON ... apparently twelve MG's (typo had two)
DD-436 MONSSEN ... twelve MG's

All four units would have had twelve 50-cal MG's while in the Atlantic Fleet. Some could have had 20-mm guns replacing a few 50-cal MG's before heading to the Pacific, but I have found no evidence that says so. Therefore, I believe that the 15 June 1942 numbers show that replacement of at least some MG's with 20-mm guns had already happened. The following listing of Armament for these four units in the 2 July 1942, Armament Summary "Weekly Update", shows that all four were credited with some 20-mm guns (USS GRAYSON had her Yard Period at MINY and the report showed that she had the nine 20-mm gun configuration);

On 2 July 1942, The listed light AA armament as;
DD-433 GWIN ... two 20-mm guns and eight 50-cal MG's
DD-434 MEREDITH ... four 20-mm guns and six 50-cal MG's
DD-435 GRAYSON ... nine 20-mm guns and no 50-cal MG's
DD-436 MONSSEN ... two 20-mm guns and six 50-cal MG's

I have no idea of when the 20-mm guns replaced a like number of 50-cal MG's. Note, in the Atlantic Fleet, the 20-mm guns replaced the twelve MG's basically in a one 20-mm gun for two MG's. It is obvious that the Pacific Fleet didn't follow that policy, choosing to keep as many AA guns as possible onboard (and as a result didn't ACCURATELY report the number of 50-cal MG's onboard!!). 20-mm guns were in short supply in early 1942, PHNY didn't get a sizable shipment until March 1942, and were installed in many cases only a few at time so that every destroyer got some.

Now then as for photographic evidence, it is very spotty in 1942 for all these units.

A photo of USS GWIN on the Doolittle Raid dated 18 April 1942, shows that she only has 50-cal MGs onboard (all twelve of them). Gwin also has a longer pair of drop depth charge tracks than her sisters.

Photos of USS MEREDITH on the Doolittle Raid dated April 1942, appears to show that she has at least two 20-mm guns replacing the middle pair (port/starboard) of 50-cal MGs on the aft deckhouse. It is undetermined if the two MG's forward of the bridge are 20-mm guns or 50-cal MG's. A photo dated 23 June 1942, shows that MEREDITH has the two 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse as seen in April 1942, plus two forward of the bridge. With a total of eight 50-cal MG's.

Photos of USS GRAYSON during the Doolittle raid aren't real clear on the light AA Armament. I have a blurry photo that could be either USS GRAYSON or USS MONSSEN (based on their camo patterns being similar), showing that unit with a pair of 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse as seen on MEREDITH and MONSSEN.

Photos of USS MONSSEN alongside USS ENTERPRISE dated 19 May 1942, shows her with TWO 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse replacing the middle pair of 50-cal MG's and ten 50-cal MG's.

That is about as detailed I can get and I have no idea of when and where the Doolittle Raid units showing 20-mm guns onboard, got them.


There is only one period of time where this could have happened....

The research I've done about TF 18's movements after leaving Norfolk March 4th to leaving San Francisco Bay on April 2nd, went like this....

Quote:
On 4 March 1942, Hornet sailed from Norfolk as part of Task Force TF 18 in company with Cimarron (AO-22), the destroyer Gwin (DD-433), the high speed transport Manley (APD-1), the steamship Santa Ana, and was joined by the destroyers Grayson (DD-435) and Meredith (DD-434) after passing Cape Henry. she embarked Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air Artemus Gates and an aide, who were to travel in the carrier to observe operations.

The next morning, 5 March 1942, Hornet was joined by the heavy cruiser Vincennes (CA-44) and light cruiser Nashville (CL-43), and destroyers Monssen (DD-436) and Sturtevant (DD-240), as well as the U.S. Army Transports (USAT) Santa Lucia, Santa Paula, and Uruguay.

The task force continued on, course set for Panama, and on 10 March 1942 the Hornet launched one of her utility planes to transport Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air Gates, and his aide, to shore, the cruise in the carrier having been completed..

Transiting the Panama Canal on 11 March 1942, Hornet cleared Balboa on the 12th. On 15 March. At 1335 funeral services were held for Seaman Durik, (who dies from injuries received in a torpedo accident on Meredith and at 1345 Hornet stopped her engines. One minute later, Durik’s body was committed to the deep with full military honors. Soon thereafter, the carrier resumed the voyage, “all engines ahead standard, 16 knots.”

Hornet and her consorts reached San Diego on 20 March 1942, and moored at NAS North Island. She then got underway on the next morning to conduct carrier qualifications offshore until the 28th when she left for Alameda NAS with the rest of TF 18. (All ships stood availability for any minor repairs they needed during this week cause they knew that they were not going to have any other chance once leaving.)

She arrived in San Francisco bay 30 March, 1942 all ships anchoring in the bay, the morning of 31 March 1942, tugs assisted Hornet alongside Pier 1, NAS Alameda, where, on 1 April, the carrier loaded 16 B-25s that had been stripped of everything not deemed essential. Capt. Duncan visited the ship, and gave capt. Mitscher his secret orders, she hauled in her lines and moved away from the pier, then anchored in San Francisco Bay shortly before the end of the afternoon watch. Fuel barges topped off the tanks on all ships.

Starting with USS Gwin, at 0800 2 April 1942 the destroyers got underway reporting clearing the channel at 10:10. Hornet got underway at 1018 and stood out into the Pacific, Nashville, Vincennes, and Cimarron falling in astern of her, destroyers Gwin, Grayson, Meredith, and Monssen deployed as forward screen.


*the above is my compilation of info from several sources, if incorrect please let me know*

The only time slot available to them was the week they spent in San Diego getting ready for combat operations flight ops & qualifications for the Hornet and gunnery practice for the guns... A week is sufficient time to install light gunnery changes.... That where the known observed changes had to have happened, there was no other availability on record....

Thanks Rick for the datum on the photos and the last confirmed Atlantic fit, that gives me the base to start with. Any other structural changes that I need to make to the kit?
Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:58 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
The DesDiv 22 units are an interesting group to study. Their armament configuration at times is pretty fuzzy. I have searched the individual units BuShips Files (with little success) and gone through Weekly Yard Reports at PHNY, plus Armament Summary Updates looking for answers, with varied success.

On 11 May 1942, DesDiv 22 was allowed a special configuration authorization of NINE 20-mm guns. The four units were modified as such in June-July and August 1942.

DD-433 GWIN ... at PHNY 26 June - 2 July 1942
DD-434 MEREDITH ... at PHNY 6-15 August 1942
DD-435 GRAYSON ... at MINY May - 9 June 1942
DD-436 MONSSEN ... at PHNY 26 June - 2 July 1942

Prior to this mod from when they left the Atlantic Fleet with USS HORNET to post-Battle of Midway, is quite fuzzy.

The Armament Summary issued on 15 June 1942 (there is a time lag so the data was collected at some point before that), and updated in the 2 July 1942, Weekly Update as;

On 15 June 1942, no 20-mm guns were listed and the following numbers of 50-cal MG's were noted
DD-433 GWIN ... six MG's
DD-434 MEREDITH ... eight MG's
DD-435 GRAYSON ... apparently twelve MG's (typo had two)
DD-436 MONSSEN ... twelve MG's

All four units would have had twelve 50-cal MG's while in the Atlantic Fleet. Some could have had 20-mm guns replacing a few 50-cal MG's before heading to the Pacific, but I have found no evidence that says so. Therefore, I believe that the 15 June 1942 numbers show that replacement of at least some MG's with 20-mm guns had already happened. The following listing of Armament for these four units in the 2 July 1942, Armament Summary "Weekly Update", shows that all four were credited with some 20-mm guns (USS GRAYSON had her Yard Period at MINY and the report showed that she had the nine 20-mm gun configuration);

On 2 July 1942, The listed light AA armament as;
DD-433 GWIN ... two 20-mm guns and eight 50-cal MG's
DD-434 MEREDITH ... four 20-mm guns and six 50-cal MG's
DD-435 GRAYSON ... nine 20-mm guns and no 50-cal MG's
DD-436 MONSSEN ... two 20-mm guns and six 50-cal MG's

I have no idea of when the 20-mm guns replaced a like number of 50-cal MG's. Note, in the Atlantic Fleet, the 20-mm guns replaced the twelve MG's basically in a one 20-mm gun for two MG's. It is obvious that the Pacific Fleet didn't follow that policy, choosing to keep as many AA guns as possible onboard (and as a result didn't ACCURATELY report the number of 50-cal MG's onboard!!). 20-mm guns were in short supply in early 1942, PHNY didn't get a sizable shipment until March 1942, and were installed in many cases only a few at time so that every destroyer got some.

Now then as for photographic evidence, it is very spotty in 1942 for all these units.

A photo of USS GWIN on the Doolittle Raid dated 18 April 1942, shows that she only has 50-cal MGs onboard (all twelve of them). Gwin also has a longer pair of drop depth charge tracks than her sisters.

Photos of USS MEREDITH on the Doolittle Raid dated April 1942, appears to show that she has at least two 20-mm guns replacing the middle pair (port/starboard) of 50-cal MGs on the aft deckhouse. It is undetermined if the two MG's forward of the bridge are 20-mm guns or 50-cal MG's. A photo dated 23 June 1942, shows that MEREDITH has the two 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse as seen in April 1942, plus two forward of the bridge. With a total of eight 50-cal MG's.

Photos of USS GRAYSON during the Doolittle raid aren't real clear on the light AA Armament. I have a blurry photo that could be either USS GRAYSON or USS MONSSEN (based on their camo patterns being similar), showing that unit with a pair of 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse as seen on MEREDITH and MONSSEN.

Photos of USS MONSSEN alongside USS ENTERPRISE dated 19 May 1942, shows her with TWO 20-mm guns on the aft deckhouse replacing the middle pair of 50-cal MG's and ten 50-cal MG's.

That is about as detailed I can get and I have no idea of when and where the Doolittle Raid units showing 20-mm guns onboard, got them.
Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Wow, a couple of hours ago I finished reading all 56 pages of this topic..... what a discussion....

Lots of nice pics and even some drawings excellent explanations.... still trying to digest it all....

The reason I read it was because I am intending on building an exemplar ship of each of the ships in Task Force 18, and since the destroyers USS Gwin, USS Meredith, USS Greyson and USS Monssen, (Destroyer Division 22) were assigned to escort the USS Hornet on it's journey to Shangri La fame along with the USS Vincennes and USS Nashville, were all early Gleaves class sister ships....

What I've learned after this three day reading expedition.....

They were all in Ships 2 rev. 1 Measure 12 modified paint (as painted by boston navy yard) and they were in this paint scheme until after the guadalcanal battles.... (three of them didn't survive)
None of them had 40mm guns... But I have to figure out what their AA fit actually was... Opinion holds that they had received at least some 20mm guns before leaving on the raid (at least two, probably four)
They had at least 4 "K" style depth charge projectors and their "Y" guns had been removed....

The best kit to model any of these ships is the Dragon Models Livermore 1942.....

Am I on the right track so far?

Any advise....

EG
Post Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Thank you again, Rick! Those are indeed very helpful.

Michael
Post Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Michael,

Here are four of eleven photos taken of USS RODMAN (DD-456) during Operation Torch. USS RODMAN was a favorite subject and many of the photos came out great. These four views provide views of just about the whole ship. As you get questions in your build, I may be able to find a good view of that area. The one thing I don't have, are photos of her while she was in Ms 12R(mod), but plenty while she was painted in Ms 22.

When I say the "square-front" on the 02 deck level, I'm not talking about the Pilothouse, it is the deck below that. When she was launched, RODMAN had the earlier Rounded Front shape that BUCHANAN had, but was altered by the time she was operational. Squaring allowed for more room to place two 20-mm guns in the area between the bridge and the 52 mount.

In these views you can see some unique things like a ammo ready use cabinet across from the quad 1.1-un mount and note her Mk 51 director covered in canvas. In the October 1942 views, she doesn't have Mk 14 gunsights installed on her 20-mm guns. However, in the image dated November 1942, they are installed. I'm not certain that this image is of USS RODMAN, there are differences in her configuration. But, some of those differences like an additional raft float stacked atop a previous one can be done pretty easily. In either case, the aft deckhouse configuration is pretty typical in this timeframe. Also, these photos were taken before the three additional 20-mm guns were installed during her upgrade with two twin 40-mm mounts replacing the quad 1.1-in mount and the single 20-mm gun opposite the 1.1-in mount on the aft deckhouse.

USS RODMAN has the SC-1 radar atop her foremast, but doesn't yet have a SG radar.

Image

Image

Image

Image
Post Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Though this picture, borrowed from the Destroyer History Foundation's site on Rodman, looks very similar when blown up, including the searchlight platform and aft deck house. The mizzen mast is truncated, however.

Image

Michael
Post Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

After looking at the info on DANFS, The Destroyer History Foundation, and NavSource, I think Rodman, DD456 fits the bill. From the few photos I've seen, the configuration sure looks like the 1942 Buchanan in the Dragon kit, and she was on the N. Atlantic convoy runs as well as the Russian convoys, so that's what I was looking for. I do note that your post above says that the bridge was square faced on Rodman as opposed to round faced on Buchanan, but the launch pictures I see on NavSource sure look round to me. Maybe I'm missing something. It looks like the searchlight platform and perhaps the aft deck house might be different, but it's hard to tell the time frame of many of the pictures I'm seeing.

Any further help would be much appreciated!

Michael
Post Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:38 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Rick,

This is great info, thanks! I have the first boxing of the kit, the 1942 version. Let me do some looking at your list and I'll see if I can narrow down my choice.

Michael
Post Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Benson/Gleaves class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Michael,

I don't know which BUCHANAN kit you have, the 1942 one or 1945 one. The 1945 kit has more options available with I believe all the parts for the 1942 version plus the 1945 configuration. I will try to give you a list of options based on first the 1942 version of the kit and then add that most of those and other units could also be modeled with the 1945 kit. The DML BENSON and GLEAVES class kits have a lot of common parts, but depending on the specific ship called out "on the box", not all the optional parts for other units may be available. Examples, would be the lack of 40-mm guns for early versions of any of these units. Boxes labeled as 1945 do have twin 40-mm mounts.

First off, the 1942 BUCHANAN kit shows a typical Repeat-GLEAVES class (DD-453 and higher) unit sent to the Pacific with a single quad 1.1-in mount. Other Repeat-GLEAVES class units also armed with the quad 1.1-in mount were operated in the Atlantic with most of them being deployed to Operation Torch off North Africa. But, in fact there wasn't much difference between Pacific-based and Atlantic-based units until local alterations started to appear in the Pacific, which are not reflected in the DML 1942 kit. A total of 24 Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES dual class units were completed with the quad 1.1-in before the planned twin 40-mm mounts were available for installation in July 1942. Units with the quad 1.1-in mounts didn't immediately get upgraded to the two twin 40-mm configuration until after Operation Torch. Actually, the Pacific-based units retained the quad 1.1-in mount longer than the Atlantic-based units.

Repeat-GLEAVES class units with a quad 1.1-in mount in the Atlantic were;

DD-454 ELLYSON - Federal built
DD-455 HAMBLETON - Federal built
DD-456 RODMAN - Federal built
DD-457 EMMONS - BIW built
DD-458 MACOMB - BIW built
DD-461 FORREST - BosNY built
DD-462 FITCH - BosNY built
DD-463 CORRY - ChNY built
DD-464 HOBSON - ChNY built
DD-632 COWIE - BosNY built
DD-640 BEATTY - ChNY built

Configuration "details" varied by yard where the units were built and generally were the same or nearly the same for the units built at the same yard. USS BUCHANAN was a Federal-built unit and I have labeled which units above were also built by Federal. However, some units of the Federal-built Repeat-GLEAVES class units had the original "rounded-face" to the 02 level of the bridge (same deck as the 52 mount was on), which USS BUCHANAN was one. All of the Atlantic based units above had the "square-face" to 02 level of the bridge. The kit comes with both options.

If you bought the 1942 version of the USS BUCHANAN kit, the above list are your options of modeling with most accuracy. However, you can model the others, but should consulate photos to note differences. One noticeable difference is the location of the searchlight, aft of the second stack or on the aft deckhouse.

All of these units were upgraded to the two twin 40-mm configuration late 1942-early 1943. At about the same time, three 20-mm guns were added (one on an elevated platform forward of the bridge and two in bridge wings), making a total of seven 20-mm guns. The remaining units of the Atlantic-based Repeat-GLEAVES class units were completed with two twin 40-mm mounts. The list below does NOT include the 20 Square-Bridge Repeat-GLEAVES class units which the BUCHANAN kit and any of the DML kits, DO NOT include. (However, a 3-D printed Square-Bridge has recently became available)

DD-489, DD-490, DD-633, DD-634, DD-635, DD-636, DD-637, DD-638, DD-639, and DD-641.

There were also a number of Repeat-BENSON class units that can be modeled from this kit since the kit comes with the BENSON class stacks ... but the BUCHANAN kit may not have all the optional parts needed to be completely "accurate".

OH ... A NOTE!!! If you are building a unit with a quad 1.1-in mount, ONLY install ONE Mk 51 director directly forward of the quad 1.1-in mount. Actually, from the photos I have scanned, I "think" only the Atlantic-based units had Mk 51 directors installed just prior to Operation Torch. The Pacific-based units don't appear to have gotten directors for their 1.1-in mounts and relied on local control.

As far as camo schemes used, the early Repeat-GLEAVES (and BENSON's) units were painted in Ms 12R(mod) then starting in August 1942, new-built and overhauled units started to be painted in Ms 22 or for a few in Ms 18, for service in the Atlantic. There was a mass repainting to Ms 22 (and Ms 18 for a few) of the majority of units involved with Operation Torch in September and October 1942. Ms 22 was the standard camo for Atlantic Fleet until late 1944 when dazzle became the standard.

PS. Once you figure out which ship and timeframe you wish to model, I may be able to help you with more info and images.
Post Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:25 pm

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