The Ship Model Forum

The K-Guns on the BENSON-GLEAVES were installed in early 1942. The installation of K-Guns and storage of reloads required removal of the benches.

The BENSON-GLEAVES classes (and I think FLETCHER class) were structurally designed to support the installation of Y-Guns. They were installed in mid-late 1941. The Y-Gun is hard to spot in profile views. Y-Gun depth charge projectors actually go back to WWI, in peacetime they were not installed on the destroyers.

Falcon, to answer your question about the crew Washroom in the aft deck house - yes, the head and washroom were located there. The plan view is shown here: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/dd618.pdf

Jim

Rick - thanks. Invaluable stuff as always.

Re: Depth Charges

In looking at all my refs. on and off the web, I notice that most if not all early Benson/Gleaves - early 1942 and earlier - do not have the K-guns, and pics of those with Y-guns are few.

When did the first K-guns hit the fleet?

Re: benches on port side of aft deckhouse

I assume these went away when the K-guns were installed. Did the aft deckhouse have the crew wash/shower room as in the Four Pipers. ? Would explain the "lounge" area & benches.

Re: watertight doors on aft deckhouse.

There seem to be variations in the placement of doors - any rules of thumb ?

Yes the aft pair (starboard and port) of 20-mm tubs were outboard more than the other four and that required the vertical supports. When the BENSON-GLEAVES upgraded from 50-cal MG's to 20-mm guns, many times these same types of vertical supports were required. My suspicion is that the aft con needed more room ... yes as I mentioned before. Actually all of these 50-cal MG's were added at the same time when the aft deckhouse searchlight tower was cutaway. The plan always was to upgrade to 20-mm guns when they were available.

PS: I think all of the 50-cal tubs on the aft deckhouse are the same height. There is some parallax problems in viewing from a negative angle with the aft most tubs being onboard more with more surface area exposed.

In taking a long look at the photos, it appears the the aft tub(s) are mounted more outboard than the forward and mid tubs - and that the aft tub has 2 vertical supports. This is most prominent in the pics looking aft from the stbd quarter.

Also noticeable is the slightly taller splinter shield on the stbd aft tub.

This applies to the stbd side - the aft tub on the port side also has the 2 supports, but does not appear much larger than the forward 2 tubs.

I assume that this is to give clearance for the 5" mount and also the emergency conn.

I guess that the aft tubs were the first added and then the 4 others were mounted slightly inboard and the supports were not needed.

[quote="falcon04"]I note that there does [u]not[/u] appear to be a fixed catwalk between the mid and aft deckhouse in pics where there is a clear view. [/quote]

The catwalks only showed up after the US had spent some time escorting in the North Atlantic. The crews needed a safer place to traverse fore-and-aft in heavy seas than the main deck. (This same problem is what finally got the Royal Navy to move its DD's officer's quarters forward, starting with the R class.) The catwalks helped in the Pacific, too, but the stormy winters in the Atlantic made the need an "every day" thing.

Actually, I don't think the middle "tub" is more inboard than the forward tub. It is just that the forward most "tubs" are built on the taper of the deck.

BENSON (DD-421) with five 5-in guns. Note the deck shape, the 53 mount was removed and the 50-cal MG's installed on the deck. They would have had to add a small semi-circle of deck for the forward tubs. The two 20-mm tubs seen here were I think in the same location as the aft most 50-cal MG's, only the tubs are larger in diameter.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD421AftDeckhouse.jpg[/img]

I forgot to say that BRISTOL as completed was a hybrid between the earlier units and the remaining "Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES". BRISTOL was the last unit to complete with a 50-cal armament. But she had some "lessons learned" features, like the fully enclosed gun mounts.

Rick - Wow! Pretty much covers it !

I note that there does [u]not[/u] appear to be a fixed catwalk between the mid and aft deckhouse in pics where there is a clear view.

I see what you mean about the positioning of the 3 "tubs" port/stbd, and the fact that the middle tub is more inboard on either side.

More than enough to work with - Thanks !

Falcon,

I don't have many other images from the "50-cal MG era" fully broadside or nearly so. I have not been able to "firmly" nail down the arrangement of the 50-cal MG locations on the aft deckhouse. It is a little hard to pick out, but I think that the starboard 50-cal MG's are spaced more or less equal distance apart. Notice on the portside photos of WILKES and INGRAHAM below, the spacing between the three 50-cal MG's appear to be equally spaced, but a little further forward compared to the Starboard side.

Also, notice on the last WOOLSEY image that the aft most 50-cal MG bulwark is extended out further than the other two. I think that was because of the aft con station.

As I have said, I really would like to find an overhead view or a drawing of this configuration of these GLEAVES class destroyers.

WILKES (DD-441) on 28 July 1941 ... about the most broadside image I have ... note how the aft two pairs of MG's are staggered.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD441x4BosNPS-28Jul41.jpg[/img]

WILKES (DD-441) Summer 1941 (likely same date as above)
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD441x5-Sum41.jpg[/img]

WOOLSEY (DD-437) on 8 September 1941 ... note that this view is taken a little more from the stern and that the last two pairs of MG's are sort of in line.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD437x5BosNPS-8Sep41.jpg[/img]

WOOLSEY (DD-437) on 2 February 1942
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD437x10-2Feb42.jpg[/img]

INGRAHAM (DD-444) in August 1941
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD444x4-Aug41.jpg[/img]

Close-up of WILKES
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD441AftDeckhouse.jpg[/img]

Close-up of INGRAHAM
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD444AftDeckhouse.jpg[/img]

Close-up of NICHOLSON
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD442AftDeckhouse.jpg[/img]

Close-up of SWANSON
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD443AftDeckhouse.jpg[/img]

Two more views of "6-pack" BRISTOL (DD-453) and KEARNY (DD-432)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0545309.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/sepulcher/kearnyport.jpg

On the BRISTOL - is the catwalk just a temporary, or did some have this permanently on the stbd side ?

On KEARNY, note the ready boxes between the splinter shields.

And WOOLSEY, from Ricks earlier post - note the boxes.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/Woolsey-2Feb42.jpg

Some pics do give the appearance of asymmetry port-stbd for the 0.50's, but most are not 90 degree abeam shots - any more in your library ?

Falcon,

Yes NICHOLSON is or should be the same configuration as MEREDITH in mid to late 1941. Almost all of the early BENSON-GLEAVES (DD-421 through 444) went through the King Board modification in June-August 1941 and are pretty close to each other in the two configuration groups. There were nine 5-Gun units (DD421-428, and 431) with ten 50-cal MG's and the rest were 4-Gun with twelve 50-cal MG's. The 4-Gun units with the six-pack MG's, appear to have the MG's staggered port to starboard rather than being a mirror image. The 5-Gun units always looked a little awkward with the two MG's just forward of 53 mount to me. As for the 50-cal MG ready use ammo boxes, look at the photo of ELLYSON on the first page of this thread. There are several styles of ready use boxes, so they may be the same as a 20-mm box, but is unlikely.

Thank you, Rick.

I scanned and clarified the color photo from the WP - the same photo which is at Navsource - and I'm satisfied that it is indeed Ms-12. Also visible is the characteristic "Six-pack" of individual .50 cal. splinter shields on the aft deckhouse - shown on some of your photos and on the Nicholson in particular, which is a ringer for the Meredith's configuration.

Photos of the Meredith at Navsource do not disagree.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/434.htm

I reviewed all your many prior posts and see that at one time you were unable to find a clear overhead pic of the "Six-pack", but I think it may be possible to come pretty close with what is available.

One question - did the .50 use similar ammo ready boxes to the 20mm ?

Falcon,

I looked at the Navsource photo of MEREDITH following NORTH CAROLINA and frankly I could tell the scheme.

The images I have

MEREDITH (DD-434) 29 April 1941 in Ms 1 before her aft superstructure was cut down and MG's added.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD434x80Bos-29Apr41.jpg[/img]


BENSON (DD-421) on 21 June 1941 in Ms 2 (5-Gun)
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD421x80Bos-27Jun41.jpg[/img]


HILLARY P. JONES (DD-427) in late 1941 in Ms 12 (5-Gun)
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD427x80Bos-1941.jpg[/img]


Here is a series of views of NICHOLSON (DD-442) in September 1941 in Ms 12 (4-Gun like MEREDITH appears to be in the NORTH CAROLINA photo)

[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD442x31-3Sep41.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD442x3HiRes-3Sep41.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD442x4-1941.jpg[/img]

In my eternal quest to jump from one project to another - 6 going now - I'm looking back again at the oldest - North Carolina (BB-55) - during one of her shakedown cruises in 1941.

Color pics in the North Carolina "Warship Pictorial" show her escorted by Meridith (DD-434) apparently painted in the original MS-12 (unmodified) as is the NC.

The pics unfortunately are too low resolution to be very useful. Navsource has some pics of Meridith in that scheme, in apparently the same configuration, but again too low in resolution.

I want to do a small diorama showing the turning NC preparing to launch her Kingfisher, followed closely by the Meridith - as in the great photo in the WP.

Questions:

(1) Any pics available of Meridith or her sister ships in the late summer 1941 configuration.

(2) the Dragon 700th Livermore / Monssen kit is the obvious starting point - any help would be welcomed.

Rick,

Thanks! Those photos should definitely help. I think I can figure the rigging out with those and photos in books I have.

Erik

Erik,

I have tried posting images of rigging patterns with mixed results before ... the antenna leads just don't show up well in many photos. But we will see. Below are three images at different angles of NIELDS and two other BENSONS also updated to the Anti-Kamikaze MOD. They look similar in rigging layout to NIELDS, but some features are different ... spreaders on the second stack. The rigging patterns did seem to change to one degree or another during the war and between ships. So these should be the closest. If they are not adequate, ask for a specific angle and/or send me a message off-line.

DD-616 NIELDS on 21 May 1945 off New York ... fuzzy, but some leads can be made out ... the ones coming down from the top of the mast don't show up at all.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD616Rigging-21May45.jpg[/img]

DD-608 GANSEVOORT on 20 August 1945 at Mare Island ... I think this is the best one.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD608Rigging-20Aug45.jpg[/img]

DD-612 KENDRICK on 23 June 1945 at New York ... fuzzier than GANSEVOORT, but gives you another perspective.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD612Rigging-23Jun45.jpg[/img]

I'm getting to the point where I'm about to rig my DD-616 Nields build. I have the Warship Pictorial #12 Benson/Gleaves Class DD book for a reference. Before I begin, are there any other photo or diagram sources for rigging this class of ship out there? Also, were the Bensons fitted out in the late war anti-kamikaze configuration rigged any differently than a typical Benson?

Thanks,
Erik

The Square-Bridge GLEAVES (no BENSONS) were:

Seattle-Tacoma Built units

DD-493 CARMICK
DD-494 QUICK
DD-495 ENDICOTT
DD-496 McCOOK
DD-497 FRANKFORD
DD-624 BALDWIN
DD-625 HARDING
DD-626 SATTERLEE
DD-627 THOMPSON
DD-628 WELLES

Federal Shipbuilding built units

DD-618 DAVISON
DD-619 EDWARDS
DD-620 GLENNON
DD-621 JEFFERS
DD-622 MADDOX
DD-623 NELSON

DD-645 STEVENSON*
DD-646 STOCKTON*
DD-647 THORN*
DD-648 TURNER*

* The last four Federal built units had the staggered 40-mm/20-mm layout on the aft/mid deckhouse area. Number of weapons are the same, just the order of them is different.

[quote="MartinJQuinn"]For those wanting to build a square bridge version of this class, Admiralty Modelworks is coming to your rescue:

[quote="Admin@admiraltymodelworks"]Gleaves Class Destroyer Square Bridge Item # 350/201 $ 35.00
This item is a square bridge to fit the 1/350 Dragon USS Buchanan kit to make it into the last 20 Gleaves variants that had "square" bridges.
The accessory has resin parts and photo-etch. The items include search lights, signal lights, fighting lights and details in both resin and Photo-etch which includes the lookout seats and binoculars![/quote]

According to the e-mail I received this morning, it should be available soon.[/quote]


What were the hull numbers on the square bridge Gleaves?

Sweet....