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Topic review - Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Guys:
I've been struggling with RN colors to paint Haida in 1944 - Im sure this is common !

Munro plans states 3 colors:
'Off-white' - obviously RN off-white
'Mid grey-green' - which must be G20 ? Wouldnt be the 'warm grey' G45.
'Pale blue', - which must be B30 ? Or is it B55 ?

I know that these ships were painted 'Special Emergency Fleet Destroyer Scheme' which is typically G20, G45, B30 & white. Most models of Haida are painted in a 3 color scheme looking like G20 & B30 & white.
Question is, why was Haida painted in just 3 of these colors, not the standard 4? And what were the colors? Maybe her scheme was a one-off?
Any comments are welcome
Post Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
I had pondered awhile on the propeller orientation, and had contacted the museum about the display, unfortunately no response.
There is no question that the orientation of the 2 photos is correct, if the Haida display is actually as it appears on various sites, I am surprised they have made a fundamental error.
They have the props arse about, and the prop on the right is actually the port, the left is starboard.


I finally found a photo of the Props before they were moved from Toronto to Hamilton. They were indeed switched around when moved. The Shorter one is closest.

Image

Regarding making an Error, keep in mind that the only reason the ship was saved, is that a few sailors took it upon themselves to purchase and move the ship to Toronto. It was cleaned up and kept going by volunteers for many years. It had weapons and gear from WWII mixed with 50s and 60s mods. Even the number painted on the side was her WWII Pendant on top of the Postwar Grey. The guys looking after her weren't too interested in whether the props on display were oriented correctly. Heck, they weren't even the same height!

When the ship was fixed up and taken to Hamilton, efforts were made to keep it accurate to the 50's, but still some mistakes were made. I doubt anybody knew which way the props were supposed to go.
Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:36 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
I had pondered awhile on the propeller orientation, and had contacted the museum about the display, unfortunately no response.
There is no question that the orientation of the 2 photos is correct, if the Haida display is actually as it appears on various sites, I am surprised they have made a fundamental error.

They have the props arse about, and the prop on the right is actually the port, the left is starboard.
So far, the Arunta shot is the only complete stern photo to show a tribal in drydock with props intact, here is an enhanced crop of the props, showing correct orientation and blade pitch.

Perhaps a small issue, but if someone is building a full hull model of a tribal, wouldn`t you want to get it right?
All the best


Attachments:
tribal props.jpg
tribal props.jpg [ 102.72 KiB | Viewed 229 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:59 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
I think the Haida display is random. It was moved when the ship was moved from Toronto to Hamilton a few years back and I do not think they were side by side in Toronto, but I could be wrong.
Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Darren, a rare find.
I also managed to find this shot of Arunta, props are hard to make out, but I can just distinguish the blade pitch.
They appear to match the pitch in your photo also, but I feel there may be an anomaly here.

Both shots do NOT appear to match the blade pitch of the Haida display as presented, what do you think?


Attachments:
Haida props.jpg
Haida props.jpg [ 176.26 KiB | Viewed 277 times ]
Arunta, Garden Is..jpg
Arunta, Garden Is..jpg [ 159.8 KiB | Viewed 277 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Here's a pic of HMCS MICMAC's Props in 1961. So far the only Tribal Prop image I can find.

Image
Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
We have pretty much covered the DC arrangements of all 3 operators of the class.
The one omission on the topic has been HMAS Bataan.
Commissioned before wars end, but too late for any action, she was fitted with MK IV`s as built.

She appears to be unique in stowage fit, as 2 extra racks were fitted, port and starboard, presumably 2 canisters per rack.
These were present for only a short time, the blue circle identifies them, the red arrows show the rack and loaded MK IV thrower.

Maybe of interest, and not mentioned previous, the 6 canister Mk IV rack was positioned close to the thrower, the upper/outer canister was pushed straight into the thrower cradle, the racking mechanism them moved the next canister into the outer load tray for next reload, a bit like a carousel.
Cheers.


Attachments:
Bataan spare DC racks.jpg
Bataan spare DC racks.jpg [ 81.38 KiB | Viewed 331 times ]
Bataan, June 45.jpg
Bataan, June 45.jpg [ 54.09 KiB | Viewed 331 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Awesome Brett, I will include a MkII thrower & stowage as per the plan. Thx again for the advice.
Post Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
Darren, do you know if the Haida prop exhibit is orientated correctly?
Viewed from the name plaque side, is the left prop actually the port, and the right actually the starboard?


I do not know, I'll do some digging, see what I can find

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HM ... rio_12.jpg
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
From the references available, it looks like any Canadians that saw war service were fitted with MK II`s, but without any pedestal arrangement.
It appears the plan is correct for a Canadian tribal before mid 45, the spares would be fitted to arbors and collared to the bulkhead, unlike the RN/RAN ships, the fitted spares would need to be trolleyed to the loading davit.
The previous shot of the single MK II, is interesting as it shows a line of empty arbors, and also a DC sitting in a stock, the cleat behind the crewman may indicate an abor, or several of them fitted to DC`s.
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Unfortunately, stern photos of tribals out of the water do not exist within the public domain, I certainly cannot find any.
Pity any drydock stern shots of Haida don`t show the props attached to the shafts.

Darren, do you know if the Haida prop exhibit is orientated correctly?
Viewed from the name plaque side, is the left prop actually the port, and the right actually the starboard?
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
where is her other prop if 1 is on land?
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
Great shots Darren.
Do you have any clear stern shots of a Canadian tribal in drydock, showing props?
Cheers


Sorry, no. All the DD pics I could find are from the Bow.
I have good pics of Haida when she was pulled out a few years ago. Doesn't look like she changed much from the war.
Her Prop is on land beside her, looks original.
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Hey Darren & Brett: You are helping me make this Haida very accurate & detailed!
Brett - Here is the Munro plan showing Haidas starboard side DC stowage


Attachments:
Scan.jpg
Scan.jpg [ 308.3 KiB | Viewed 152 times ]
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Great shots Darren.
Do you have any clear stern shots of a Canadian tribal in drydock, showing props?
Cheers
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
HMCS Athabaskan II 1955 with refit funnel caps.

Image
Image

HMCS Huron 1940's
Forward
Image
Aft
Image
Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Cool Brett, you have quite a knowledge on this...Im building Haida and have the Munroe plans and it does show reload DC with arbour attached stowed against the bulkheads behind the 2 throwers, one each port & starboard side.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
As a followon to my previous post, the attachment shows a typical MK II arrangement with pedestals, a spare arbor is on the deck behind the pedestals, the canister in the thrower is not ready for firing as it is still lashed to the thrower.
The second shot shows the DC fitted to the arbor via a cable attached to the cradle points.

The pedestal set on a RN tribal appears to be aft of the thrower, on the RAN tribal sisters the set is located forward of the thrower, not sure about the Canadians so check your references.

Different sources quote different info, but it is my understanding that the DC fitted on the MK II was lashed to the cradle, when fired a shear pin would release the arbor cable from the DC, and the arbor would fall away from the DC in decending flight.
Mk IV throwers also had a shear pin/cable arrangement on the cradle which broke in the firing sequence, the DC continued it`s travel and the cradle and spigot were retained and arrested by the damping pistons on either side of the thrower barrel.

Some photos show the DC just sitting within the cradle, to my mind this would be perilous as a heavy swell could actually drop the DC over the side before it is fired, if any of my information is incorrect I`m sure I`ll hear about it.


Attachments:
MK II thrower with MK VII DC.jpg
MK II thrower with MK VII DC.jpg [ 95.99 KiB | Viewed 247 times ]
MK II  p1.jpg
MK II p1.jpg [ 106.72 KiB | Viewed 247 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Different ships had different stowage arrangements, in the case of RN/RAN tribals fitted with MK II throwers, the readyuse spares were stored in upright pedestals, usually 3.
The pedestals where arranged with the centre pedestal offset to allow space for the loading davit and its operation.

In the case of the previous attachment which is Arunta, the spare arbors are stowed against the bulkhead WITHOUT the DC, other ships had different arrangements like the Vervain attachment ( arbors already attached to spare DC`s against bulkhead) note NO pedestal mounts are fitted.
If the ship was fitted with pedestals, spare DC`s would be brought up from magazine below as required, and fitted to spare arbor, then loaded into pedestal previously emptied.
The Eskimo shot shows a spare DC/Arbor being loaded into its pedestal.

Because refits were always being carried out, many MK II were replaced by MK IV later in the war, so it is important to check your references, as previously stated, any thrower which has a spare DC rack located in close proximity is a MK IV.
As an example Warramunga as built was fitted with MK II`s but by mid 44 these had been replaced with MK IV`s.
All the best.


Attachments:
MK II pedestal arrangement..jpg
MK II pedestal arrangement..jpg [ 68.64 KiB | Viewed 256 times ]
Vervain MK II.jpg
Vervain MK II.jpg [ 66.83 KiB | Viewed 256 times ]
ESKIMO.jpg
ESKIMO.jpg [ 63.7 KiB | Viewed 256 times ]
GASCOYNE MK IV.jpg
GASCOYNE MK IV.jpg [ 227.45 KiB | Viewed 256 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy Tribal class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks again Brett! Yes, I have now modified my trumpeter stacks as per your ref photos.
Regarding the previous message you supplied about the depth charge stowage, does your second picture show the ready-use DC stored in a pedestal alongside the actual thrower? Or are they stored against the bulkhead?
Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:52 am

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